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How is the Amarr Empress not a capsuleer?

Author
Count of MonteCylon
New Destiny Kingdom
#1 - 2015-12-19 04:25:12 UTC
Maybe someone can explain this to me, I don't follow the storyline very much. I read that the Amarr Empress died. But I've died like 50 times and get brought back to life. How is it that a middling Amarr like me has the capsuleer technology to bring myself back to life but the Empress doesn't? I also read she was in a pod, which I thought only capsuleers could use.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12

Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#2 - 2015-12-19 07:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
It's because of their religious nature. Cloning is considered a grave sin. So if she would reclone, she would commit a serious offense in the eyes of the Amarr people. In this light, high ranking Amarr can be capsuleers, as long as they don't use the recloning feature.
Know that Amarr have nothing against cybernetic enhancements, it's even encouraged among them (most direct evidence for this are the Khanid Cyberknights).

That said, it's perfectly viable she recloned somewhere in secret, as she had done it before (but back then her reapparance fell under 'Divine Intervention, when she wiped out a Minmatar Elder Fleet in a single shot)

Edit: With above in light, how are Amarr recloning capsuleers (players) looked at? depends on who you ask, but seems mainly they're seen as a sort of martyrs, willingly chosing a life of damnation in service of the Amarr Empire (or just damned if they no longer serve the Amarr Empire)

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2015-12-19 10:25:03 UTC
I thought it's only the Emperor/Empress and the Heirs who aren't allowed to clone in the Amarr Empire. The whole 'Divine right to rule' being tied to the original flesh.
Rio Bravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-12-20 03:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rio Bravo
I am personally very disappointed in the handling of the succession. In my grief, the first thing that comes to mind is conspiracy and betrayal. We know what the palace can be like. The only thing that keeps my faith in her majesty's servants, is how reactionary her entourage and the succession process is. Her closest advisers seemed as shocked as her subjects. I perhaps should be commending our nations top generals for their restraint on their personal ambitions. The heavens salute you, it has been orderly and without the lesser peoples tendency towards social breakdown and civil war.
If there was a conspiracy to eliminate Empress Jamyl, I would suggest CCP Alliance were the most probable suspects in any decision to assassinate her. Most large life changing events in New Eden seem to take place after CCP or CSM board room meetings. I miss the Holy Empress Jamyl more than you can guess, much of my crew is still emotional and fasting over her demise. I still cry daily.
As far as cloning the Royal Family, I am confused by the policy. I feel it's not necessarily scriptural, but rigid tradition to disallow them cloning. Perhaps the See is being too dogmatic? The King or Queen are simpIy stewards of the Lords Kingdom after all until he arrives. It is acknowledged none are the true heirs.
Never the less, the See's word is heavenly decree in matters of ascention and the throne, and I follow the word. I will not disparage the doctrine, just concede I lack understanding, and defer to their superior education, discipline, and righteousness.
The Royal Family should have had contingency for tragedy like this, I can't help but feel this was negligence and a sin. The consolation of course being Jamyl is better able to protect us now where she is. When I can get my crew to leave hangar, we observe the mourning rituals each time. It has been months. Please, do not let this holy people go shepherd-less any longer.
Though her fleshly remains lie in state, I still fly and would give my life for her majesty Queen Jamyl Sarum!

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.

Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-01-09 08:38:31 UTC
Quote:
I thought it's only the Emperor/Empress and the Heirs who aren't allowed to clone in the Amarr Empire. The whole 'Divine right to rule' being tied to the original flesh.


Arguable - see the Chronicle Godflesh. Seems to apply to all members of the "Royal" families at minimum and possibly all the noble houses.

Aside from that, I'm somewhat confused about Jamyl's status - CCP Falcon has said on numerous occasions that she's "as dead as a can of spam" but if you read the chronicle 514 where she is meeting the other heads of state, they are attacked and she says the following:

Quote:
"We are about to be pulled out of here in the next thirty seconds," said Jamyl Sarum, looking at the only three colleagues she had in the world. "Three of us will be instantly safe. I do not know about you, Dear Executor."


"Dear Executor" was Tibus Heth, the only one of the four who was not a capsuleer. The implication was (if I'm understanding this right) that the others, including Jamyl, would be safe due to clone access. If this is the case, at least at that time she was still maintaining a covert cloning facility for herself and shouldn't have perma-died from the Drifter attack.

Thanks to Falcon's statements, however, we know she did. There are two possibilities to this:

1) The Drifters interfered with the consciousness transfer. We know from the incidents with Hilen Tukoss that they can do this.

2) Jamyl herself shut down her cloning facility. This is hinted at in the new Chronicle Inheritance where Matshi Raish states:

Quote:
The death of Empress Jamyl is regrettable but, as she herself so obviously appreciated, was necessary.


Following that chronicle, I'm more inclined to believe option #2 - Jamyl allowed herself to die permanently in attempt to kill the Other.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#6 - 2016-01-12 15:15:01 UTC
Is the terrible book Empyrean Age still canon? Because while I purged most of that hot mess from my memory I'm pretty sure she was cloned in that.
Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-01-13 10:27:55 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Is the terrible book Empyrean Age still canon? Because while I purged most of that hot mess from my memory I'm pretty sure she was cloned in that.


Aside from egregious early timeline errors and any contradictions with EVE: Source, yes it is. She was cloned, and that cloning is what infected her with the Other. She just never publicly admitted this, instead claiming that God brought her back. The question here is why she didn't do it again - for my thoughts, see my post above.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2016-01-20 10:51:28 UTC
Yockerbow wrote:
Quote:
I thought it's only the Emperor/Empress and the Heirs who aren't allowed to clone in the Amarr Empire. The whole 'Divine right to rule' being tied to the original flesh.
Arguable - see the Chronicle Godflesh. Seems to apply to all members of the "Royal" families at minimum and possibly all the noble houses.
Just to add - You can be a capsuleer and not a clone. Death is usually a signature process of such, but not an absolute requirement.

Yockerbow wrote:
Aside from that, I'm somewhat confused about Jamyl's status - CCP Falcon has said on numerous occasions that she's "as dead as a can of spam"
Spam has been known to command vikings.

Yockerbow wrote:
The implication was (if I'm understanding this right) that the others, including Jamyl, would be safe due to clone access
It could also be that they weren't actually there and had just used complex holograms to put them there. Heth would have the hubris of attending in person, whilst the others didn't want to / couldn't be bothered to, but attended virtually out of respect for what the meeting meant.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-01-21 18:34:18 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
It could also be that they weren't actually there and had just used complex holograms to put them there. Heth would have the hubris of attending in person, whilst the others didn't want to / couldn't be bothered to, but attended virtually out of respect for what the meeting meant.


Allow me to directly quote the chronicle:

Quote:
Presently one of the two looked at his companion and said, “One thing I don't understand.”

“What's that,” the other man replied, his inflection flat as the dark horizon.

“Well,” said the first man, cocking his head slightly, “why are they coming all the way out here when they could just do the same thing over FTL? I can't figure it.”

“Just the way it's always been done,” said the other man.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#10 - 2016-01-21 20:48:26 UTC
Writing my own reply:

Jamyl was indeed a capsuleer. However, she was not supposed to be able to be a clone. Her original cloning was hidden extremely well and was the Other's opportunity to enter New Eden, into her.

When she was killed at Safizon, she was not supposed to have a clone. She's dead as a can of spam; however, being dead doesn't mean things to do with her are over.

Remember Hilen Tukoss? Remember how "he" sent messages asking for the Jove body parts, but later communicated (albeit brokenly) for real, saying something along the lines of him being captured by someone (who we can now be sure is the Drifters). We did, also, find his very dead body. It's implied that he may be dead, but his infomorph was intercepted and captured by the Drifters. If they could do it to him, they could certainly do it to Jamyl and the Other.

It's my personal hope that the Other emerges as the head of the Drifters, and that Jamyl becomes a voice in his head Smile
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-01-21 22:23:40 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It's my personal hope that the Other emerges as the head of the Drifters, and that Jamyl becomes a voice in his head Smile


It's probably an AI kept locked up by the Talocan.

Drifters seem to be the jailers, and everyone in new eden a convict.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-01-22 01:01:36 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Writing my own reply:

Jamyl was indeed a capsuleer. However, she was not supposed to be able to be a clone. Her original cloning was hidden extremely well and was the Other's opportunity to enter New Eden, into her.

When she was killed at Safizon, she was not supposed to have a clone. She's dead as a can of spam; however, being dead doesn't mean things to do with her are over.

Remember Hilen Tukoss? Remember how "he" sent messages asking for the Jove body parts, but later communicated (albeit brokenly) for real, saying something along the lines of him being captured by someone (who we can now be sure is the Drifters). We did, also, find his very dead body. It's implied that he may be dead, but his infomorph was intercepted and captured by the Drifters. If they could do it to him, they could certainly do it to Jamyl and the Other.

It's my personal hope that the Other emerges as the head of the Drifters, and that Jamyl becomes a voice in his head Smile


Ever whispering in the back of it's alien-machine mind "How'd you like me now *****?!"

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.

Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#13 - 2016-03-14 02:15:39 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:

It's my personal hope that the Other emerges as the head of the Drifters, and that Jamyl becomes a voice in his head Smile


lol

Do not run. We are your friends.

Sweety Palms
Speed Dating and Exploration Unlimited
#14 - 2016-03-23 09:56:50 UTC
But wait, wasn't the Empress a capsuleer first? So did she have to destroy her clones or something?