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[Feedback Plz] Logistics Frigates and Small FW Complexes

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-01-05 17:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hello folks.
It's been almost a month since the Tech Two Logistics Frigates were released and I have a specific feedback request. We're interested in what you all think about the option of allowing these Logi Frigates into small FW complexes.

At launch we intentionally disallowed the Logi Frigates from small complexes, out of an abundance of caution and some concern that they might become oppressive in that environment. Now that the community has had a chance to play with them on TQ, we're revisiting the question.

On the one hand, logistics is always a very powerful tool and I can easily see 1 combat ship plus 1-2 T2 logi being very hard to break in a small plex. The defensive position provided by FW complexes creates the potential for logistics to be more frustrating to fight than usual.

On the other hand, T1 Support Frigates aren't getting a lot of complaints and they can even be used in novices. Allowing the Logi Frigates into small plexes would also keep them consistent with other T2 frigates.
Additionally, it is generally true that something being overpowered with a group of friends is a significantly different issue than something being overpowered solo (like T3Ds) or soloish (like alt offgrid links).

So your thoughts and opinions on the issue are welcome. As always, answers with reasoning supporting your opinions are especially valuable. We brought the discussion up with the CSM earlier as well, but I'll let them share their individual opinions if and when they want to.

Thanks and happy new year!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-01-05 17:57:14 UTC
Simple answer.

Yes you should.
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#3 - 2016-01-05 18:01:17 UTC
Yes

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#4 - 2016-01-05 18:04:27 UTC
I think in general it would be better to allow them into small plexes.

I have not seen them as particularly oppressive in any environment (yet at least), and I think the confusion of having a single branch of frigates not allowed into a plex that other t2 frigates can enter is not worth it.

While these t2 logi frigs are extremely powerful against larger targets due to their low sig and high speed, frigates have no problem tracking them especially once theyre webbed down. Having been in many 10-20 man frigate fleets with t1 frig logi, I've never seen them as being as totally controlling as cruiser logi due to the much smaller rep amounts. Lower frigate HP also allows the tactic of target switching to burn down targets before the logi can catch them much more easily.

So I vote yes.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Heathen Blaggard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-01-05 18:10:05 UTC
Yes, they should be allowed in.
Fintarue
DO YOU EVEN
#6 - 2016-01-05 18:10:38 UTC
Definitely stick with the consistency. Even t2 logi cruisers can go in mediums I believe.

Host of http://www.twitch.tv/fintarue Bringing you the best tunes for the trip to a new clone!
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#7 - 2016-01-05 18:11:41 UTC
Allow them, maybe reduce the reps ? Like in a wh with an anomaly.

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
Kirith Kodachi
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#8 - 2016-01-05 18:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirith Kodachi
Since T1 logi frigs can get into novices and smalls, and T1 logi cruisers can get into mediums, not allowing T2 logi frigs into smalls squeezes them out of any niche in FW plexes, too big for smalls and too small for mediums.

In other words, yes to T2 Logi in Small plexes.

Hey, you let Command Dessies in and no one is complaining about them in smalls ( I think)
Cabon Scout
Doomheim
#9 - 2016-01-05 18:12:46 UTC
Yes they should. You've given us an sufficient way to counter them - the faction navy frigs.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#10 - 2016-01-05 18:25:01 UTC
The fun thing about small complexes is that logistics have a harsh diminishing return once you put 10 or more destroyers into one - DPS is so high and buffers so small that logi ships make little difference as people just get volleyed off field. The only time logi in small complexes matters is in smaller gang settings, which are more manageable with ewar.

I don't have a lot of experience with the logi frigs yet, but if I can recall they do not repair that much more than their T1 counterparts, but they are much more survivable. Simply burning through them with massive DPS should still be an option. In all I don't think they will cause much of a problem in smalls, except if paired with Command Destroyers. With their resistance bonuses and ability to fit bigger buffers, they might cause some problems...

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#11 - 2016-01-05 18:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonardo Adami
Tora Bushido wrote:
Allow them, maybe reduce the reps ? Like in a wh with an anomaly.


Let's let them in first and see what happens before we start nerfng them in smalls.
James Clough
Space-Brewery-Association
#12 - 2016-01-05 19:02:36 UTC
You let tech three destroyers in small for months, why not let t2 frigs in?

#GLITTER http://i.imgur.com/KXyHvqy.jpg
Zenoidan
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2016-01-05 19:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zenoidan
Yes.

The simple reason being small gang fights will be so much better in Small complexes.

Small complex = the new small gang place to be.

But seriously as others have said...you let T3D's in with out asking, knew they were OP, players gave feedback that it was OP and stupid for them to be in smalls, hell it took A LOT to get you guys to remove them.

Since day one of Logi Frig everyone has been miffed you wont let them into smalls. One again players gave feedback saying they should be let in.

Now this post? Just let them in already...



This would also sort of be better for assault frigs in a way since T3D's are not allowed in them anymore. And I would argue that you cant say the same for mediums because T3D's and Recons exist in those that once again will make small gang fights cancer with everyone flying a svipul.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#14 - 2016-01-05 19:19:12 UTC
I prefer to fly logi, if possible. So, I would ask: what is the place for T2 logi frigs in FW if they are not allowed into smalls? For a medium, just ship up to a T1 logi cruiser. For a novice, use a T1 logi frig.
In what other scenarios do you see T2 logi frigs being used over other choices? In most cases it would seem to be wiser to take a T1 logi cruiser. The T1 logi cruiser is cheaper and generally more capable. Yes, I know it is slower and has more mass, but that doesn't seem to be a huge hindrance in most cases. Faction Warfare is the only place that one really sees fights filtered out by hull types. So, I say to let the T2 logi frigs into small plexes.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#15 - 2016-01-05 19:25:15 UTC
The raw dps output of dessies, new ewar frigs (and old ones too, <3 maulus, griffin, keres, and kitsune) combined with the new command dessies micro jump field means there are so many tools available to counter logi in smalls (Not to mention recent logi nerfs...). It'd be a complete waste of a ship class from a FW player perspective if they were not allowed in smalls (since you can just bring a t2 cruiser logi into a medium rather than a t2 frig). So yes, let them in.
Gorski Car
#16 - 2016-01-05 19:37:38 UTC
Yes they should be allowed in. They are not that big of a problem especially compared to say recons in mediums or pirate frigs in novices. But then again those arent that common anyway.

Collect this post
Vivace Naaris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-01-05 19:50:32 UTC
Yes, they should be allowed. I see very little reason not to.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#18 - 2016-01-05 19:52:07 UTC
yes please. logi frig 5 just finished a few days ago! :D
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#19 - 2016-01-05 19:58:26 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
Yes they should be allowed in. They are not that big of a problem especially compared to say recons in mediums or pirate frigs in novices. But then again those arent that common anyway.


You leave my Curse lurking in mediums alone. It's literally the only trolly thing I can do in the entire game.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Matthew Dust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2016-01-05 20:18:00 UTC
Yes and bring back td3's too everyone has the option to use them so it's only op for poor people who should join a community that works together to overcome ****.
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