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Isn't it about time you fix Minnie HACs CCP??

Author
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#41 - 2016-01-04 18:42:24 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/damage-profiles-by-ship-group-and-weapon-type-in-2015/

Food for thought.

Minmatar HACs are the 2nd lowest damage in all HACs, bettering only laser HAC (zealot) by .2b damage.

Looking closer though, minmatar have 2 HACs which use projectiles, while Amarr has only 1 HAC that uses energy weapons. So you would expect projectiles to be further ahead than energy weapons. Yet even with 2 HACs using projectiles they still just barely creep past the zealot in combined damage for 2015. This is very clear that very few people are using minmatar HACs, or zealots for that matter.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#42 - 2016-01-05 04:33:13 UTC
I don't fly a zealot even though I prefer to fly Amarr laser boats over pretty much anything and have HAC 5 for the same reason I don't fly a Muninn, you can't satisfactorily fit guns, tank and propulsion to it. It's also outdone by the Omen Navy issue as a fast laser boat and the Legion is a tanky laser boat. Also because it has 3 meds it's ridiculously vulnerable to electronic warfare and neuting.

I primarily fight abject morons or carebears in kitchen sink crap and there's still no way in hell I'd show up in a zealot.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2016-01-05 15:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/damage-profiles-by-ship-group-and-weapon-type-in-2015/

Food for thought.

Minmatar HACs are the 2nd lowest damage in all HACs, bettering only laser HAC (zealot) by .2b damage.

Looking closer though, minmatar have 2 HACs which use projectiles, while Amarr has only 1 HAC that uses energy weapons. So you would expect projectiles to be further ahead than energy weapons. Yet even with 2 HACs using projectiles they still just barely creep past the zealot in combined damage for 2015. This is very clear that very few people are using minmatar HACs, or zealots for that matter.


Hybrids are .12B ahead of projectiles. If anything is to be taken out of this, it's that a very small set of ship makes that class and the rest is outclassed by other stuff.

EDIT : Reading the right line in a chart is hard...
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#44 - 2016-01-05 15:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Segraina Skyblazer
FT Diomedes wrote:

The Broadsword is the best Minmatar HAC. Unlike the Muninn, it has a useful utility high slot that takes the place of a mid slot (or two). Of late, however, I have switched from the Broadsword to the Onyx


Do you mind if I ask you want you were using the Broadsword for? And why you switched to the Onyx?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-01-05 15:42:57 UTC
To be perfectly fair, the muninn is sufficiently crap as to be almost weapon type agnostic. It matters little what you try and put on that ship, the slots sink it.

A 2 slot shield tank if I want a prop mod? Lolwut. It's not like minmatar T2 resists lend themselves to armor tanking. It needs another mid and arty as a whole just needs its grid sorting out.


For anyone not old enough to remember what happened over time was:

Arty needed huge grid, so minnie hulls had huge grid to support it. What players did however was abuse the grid by overtanking/neuts/etc and using low grid ACs. What then happened over time was the grid was reduced to reign in this abuse (and it was pretty bad). However arty fittings were not dropped in line with this. CCP solved the "extra grid" problem but made arty disgracefully hard to fit along with it.

This is exacerbated by the gulf between 650 & 720 guns in terms of effectiveness.
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#46 - 2016-01-05 16:00:43 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

So based off your reasoning, im going to assume you are using these ships in wormholes. Even if the muninn got 4 mids it would not have a strong shield tank, nor be neut resistant. So if you dont care about having no drones and just want mids to fit a CB plus shield tank, then yea the broadsword would be your best bet. Or maybe a sleipnir (which you need minny BC to 5 for that)..

If however you want to pvp in an arty ship while roaming or want an alpha fleet, arty canes and fleet canes are your best bet and can still muster a decent shield tank (50-60k IIRC). As opposed to the muninn's 30-35k shield tank or 40k armor tank. I suppose arty cynabal would work as well, but im not a fan as it tends to outtrack itself.


Correct, I'm currently daytripping in C3s. I also do some exploring looking for 6/10 DEDs. But for the most part it's wormholing since blue loot value is pretty good right now. Although if I were to lose just one of these Lokis then all my efforts would be for naught.

Strange thing is I was training for the Sleipnir until CCP made the HIC announcement changes. I made the switch right away once I saw the Broadsword specifications. I didn't even notice it before but that ships looks really good even before the WDF changes. Still I have CS5 and Minnie BC 4 halfway trained to 5 so I'm only 16 days away from the Sleipnir.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#47 - 2016-01-05 16:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/damage-profiles-by-ship-group-and-weapon-type-in-2015/

Food for thought.

Minmatar HACs are the 2nd lowest damage in all HACs, bettering only laser HAC (zealot) by .2b damage.

Looking closer though, minmatar have 2 HACs which use projectiles, while Amarr has only 1 HAC that uses energy weapons. So you would expect projectiles to be further ahead than energy weapons. Yet even with 2 HACs using projectiles they still just barely creep past the zealot in combined damage for 2015. This is very clear that very few people are using minmatar HACs, or zealots for that matter.


Hybrids are .12B ahead of projectiles. If anything is to be taken out of this, it's that a very small set of ship makes that class and the rest is outclassed by other stuff.

EDIT : Reading the right line in a chart is hard...


I agree to an extent. HACs on their own dont contribute much to overall damage (except ishtars), but the numbers still show that projectile equipped HACs and energy weapon HACs are used the least. It also shows that people prefer deimos for solo pvp and eagle for fleet. As opposed to vaga for solo and muninn for fleets.

You simply cant get the tank that the 2 hybrid boats offer out of an active tank vaga (well unless you spend 1b in implants and pimp shield booster) or buffer tanked muninn.

Edit: Also i think speed creep has played a big role in why the vaga has been Side-lined. The description of the vaga used to state it was the fastest ship available. That is no longer the case. Now the scyfi, nomen, stabber, orthrus, nosprey, nexeq, cynabal are all faster or comparable in speed to a vaga. Other ships like a deimos are much more agile, albeit slower. However a good deimos pilot could catch a vaga before it gets up to speed. That is probably working as intended, but we have far more ships now that do the same role as the vaga for much cheaper and with the same, if not faster speed. RLML scyfi for example, which applies better dps past 25km than the vaga.
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#48 - 2016-01-05 16:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Segraina Skyblazer
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
To be perfectly fair, the muninn is sufficiently crap as to be almost weapon type agnostic. It matters little what you try and put on that ship, the slots sink it.

A 2 slot shield tank if I want a prop mod? Lolwut. It's not like minmatar T2 resists lend themselves to armor tanking. It needs another mid and arty as a whole just needs its grid sorting out.


For anyone not old enough to remember what happened over time was:

Arty needed huge grid, so minnie hulls had huge grid to support it. What players did however was abuse the grid by overtanking/neuts/etc and using low grid ACs. What then happened over time was the grid was reduced to reign in this abuse (and it was pretty bad). However arty fittings were not dropped in line with this. CCP solved the "extra grid" problem but made arty disgracefully hard to fit along with it.

This is exacerbated by the gulf between 650 & 720 guns in terms of effectiveness.


The thing I don't get is why CCP insist on not doing anything to solve:

A) The over PWG requirements of medium Arties
B) The lack of proper mid-slots for both the Vaga & Muninn
C) The inconsistent tracking of medium ACs.

And then there's the Svipul that CCP made incredible by accident..........
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#49 - 2016-01-05 16:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

The Broadsword is the best Minmatar HAC. Unlike the Muninn, it has a useful utility high slot that takes the place of a mid slot (or two). Of late, however, I have switched from the Broadsword to the Onyx


Do you mind if I ask you want you were using the Broadsword for? And why you switched to the Onyx?


Small gang, in your face brawling, catching kiters, etc. The same way you might use a Vagabond or AC Muninn, but better. I switched to the Onyx because it has better DPS application against long range kiters such as the Orthrus. I feel fairly confident of getting a kill against any MWD cruiser with 37.5 km of my Onyx. Not necessarily a solo kill, but a kill.

Of course, I also use it for tackling capitals if I find any. We had a nice capital fight in G5ED and B-R on NYE, which really tested out my Onyx. A friend and I baited with a Thanatos and my Onyx to draw in their Carriers, then dropped the hammer with our own big ships.

Lately, I have been using my Onyx and Devoter as HAC's and my Broadsword and Phobos as more traditional HIC's (i.e. Anti-capital).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#50 - 2016-01-05 17:09:23 UTC
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
To be perfectly fair, the muninn is sufficiently crap as to be almost weapon type agnostic. It matters little what you try and put on that ship, the slots sink it.

A 2 slot shield tank if I want a prop mod? Lolwut. It's not like minmatar T2 resists lend themselves to armor tanking. It needs another mid and arty as a whole just needs its grid sorting out.


For anyone not old enough to remember what happened over time was:

Arty needed huge grid, so minnie hulls had huge grid to support it. What players did however was abuse the grid by overtanking/neuts/etc and using low grid ACs. What then happened over time was the grid was reduced to reign in this abuse (and it was pretty bad). However arty fittings were not dropped in line with this. CCP solved the "extra grid" problem but made arty disgracefully hard to fit along with it.

This is exacerbated by the gulf between 650 & 720 guns in terms of effectiveness.


The thing I don't get is why CCP insist on not doing anything to solve:

A) The over PWG requirements of medium Arties
B) The lack of proper mid-slots for both the Vaga & Muninn
C) The inconsistent tracking of medium ACs.

And then there's the Svipul that CCP made incredible by accident..........


A) As someone who has beat this horse to death in my own threads about the same topic, i can only speculate that CCP feels the PG requirements are the main drawback for the massive alpha you can get. Which, is fair to a point. However, this expectation fails when you realize that the only medium arty worth fitting are 720s, as 650s are near useless. Fun fact: A 280mm svipul has better alpha than a 650mm Muninn. It also doesnt help that all other long range turrets have 3 options.

Beam lasers:
Quad light beams
Focused medium beams
Heavy beams

Hybrids:
Dual 150mm railgun
200mm railgun
250mm railgun

Artillery:
720mm
650mm

The problem is, when flying arty, my motto is 720mm or none at all. 650s are underperforming by a clear margin and dont even save you that much grid if you do use them. This is the main issue with arty PG. If 650s werent utter ****, we would have fitting options. We dont though, so we are forced into using 720s and then deal with having no fitting and complain about arty fitting.

The way i see it, CCP has a couple options:

Leave 650s in their terrible position and just decrease arty grid requirements across the board. (Unlikely)

Create a new low tier arty turret. Make the current 650 into a dual 280mm with significantly better tracking and fitting. Make a "new" 650 with more alpha, the same tracking as current stats and same fitting. For the most part 720s are in a good spot. Maybe drop fitting requirements by 5% or so.

Or buff 650s to be usable and drop their grid requirements more.. Mainly increase their alpha, but reduce RoF slightly. Arty isnt aboit dps, its about alpha. Having a dps orientated arty turret isnt arty, its a railgun.

B) I honestly doubt we will see a 5 mid vaga. Its resist profile and tank bonus, plus speed will make it an extremely tanky kiter. Around 60-80k EHP after an XLASB magazine plus LSE and invuln. As a brawler, sure it would work great, but the vaga was never supposed to be better at brawling than kiting.

C) Medium acs need more base falloff and they would be in a better spot. 15-20% would be a good start.

In regards to the svipul *puts on tinfoil hat*. I think CCP purposely made t3ds OP to try and push people into bigger ships. Ive found BCs very effective at killing t3ds. They are rediculously oppressive to other frigs, and you cannot engage most using the usual tactics you use against other dessies when youre flying a frig.
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#51 - 2016-01-06 03:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Segraina Skyblazer
FT Diomedes wrote:
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

The Broadsword is the best Minmatar HAC. Unlike the Muninn, it has a useful utility high slot that takes the place of a mid slot (or two). Of late, however, I have switched from the Broadsword to the Onyx


Do you mind if I ask you want you were using the Broadsword for? And why you switched to the Onyx?


Small gang, in your face brawling, catching kiters, etc. The same way you might use a Vagabond or AC Muninn, but better. I switched to the Onyx because it has better DPS application against long range kiters such as the Orthrus. I feel fairly confident of getting a kill against any MWD cruiser with 37.5 km of my Onyx. Not necessarily a solo kill, but a kill.

Of course, I also use it for tackling capitals if I find any. We had a nice capital fight in G5ED and B-R on NYE, which really tested out my Onyx. A friend and I baited with a Thanatos and my Onyx to draw in their Carriers, then dropped the hammer with our own big ships.

Lately, I have been using my Onyx and Devoter as HAC's and my Broadsword and Phobos as more traditional HIC's (i.e. Anti-capital).


Sounds like fun. I'm jealous of you for being able to fly the Onyx, it is the next ship I'm planning on training for after I finish up training for the Broadsword. I wish I had noticed the HICs sooner otherwise I doubt that I would've wasted soo much SP training for the Sleipnir and um *coughs*....HAC5.
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#52 - 2016-01-06 04:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Segraina Skyblazer
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
To be perfectly fair, the muninn is sufficiently crap as to be almost weapon type agnostic. It matters little what you try and put on that ship, the slots sink it.

A 2 slot shield tank if I want a prop mod? Lolwut. It's not like minmatar T2 resists lend themselves to armor tanking. It needs another mid and arty as a whole just needs its grid sorting out.


For anyone not old enough to remember what happened over time was:

Arty needed huge grid, so minnie hulls had huge grid to support it. What players did however was abuse the grid by overtanking/neuts/etc and using low grid ACs. What then happened over time was the grid was reduced to reign in this abuse (and it was pretty bad). However arty fittings were not dropped in line with this. CCP solved the "extra grid" problem but made arty disgracefully hard to fit along with it.

This is exacerbated by the gulf between 650 & 720 guns in terms of effectiveness.


The thing I don't get is why CCP insist on not doing anything to solve:

A) The over PWG requirements of medium Arties
B) The lack of proper mid-slots for both the Vaga & Muninn
C) The inconsistent tracking of medium ACs.

And then there's the Svipul that CCP made incredible by accident..........


A) As someone who has beat this horse to death in my own threads about the same topic, i can only speculate that CCP feels the PG requirements are the main drawback for the massive alpha you can get. Which, is fair to a point. However, this expectation fails when you realize that the only medium arty worth fitting are 720s, as 650s are near useless. Fun fact: A 280mm svipul has better alpha than a 650mm Muninn. It also doesnt help that all other long range turrets have 3 options.

Beam lasers:
Quad light beams
Focused medium beams
Heavy beams

Hybrids:
Dual 150mm railgun
200mm railgun
250mm railgun

Artillery:
720mm
650mm

The problem is, when flying arty, my motto is 720mm or none at all. 650s are underperforming by a clear margin and dont even save you that much grid if you do use them. This is the main issue with arty PG. If 650s werent utter ****, we would have fitting options. We dont though, so we are forced into using 720s and then deal with having no fitting and complain about arty fitting.

The way i see it, CCP has a couple options:

Leave 650s in their terrible position and just decrease arty grid requirements across the board. (Unlikely)

Create a new low tier arty turret. Make the current 650 into a dual 280mm with significantly better tracking and fitting. Make a "new" 650 with more alpha, the same tracking as current stats and same fitting. For the most part 720s are in a good spot. Maybe drop fitting requirements by 5% or so.

Or buff 650s to be usable and drop their grid requirements more.. Mainly increase their alpha, but reduce RoF slightly. Arty isnt aboit dps, its about alpha. Having a dps orientated arty turret isnt arty, its a railgun.

B) I honestly doubt we will see a 5 mid vaga. Its resist profile and tank bonus, plus speed will make it an extremely tanky kiter. Around 60-80k EHP after an XLASB magazine plus LSE and invuln. As a brawler, sure it would work great, but the vaga was never supposed to be better at brawling than kiting.

C) Medium acs need more base falloff and they would be in a better spot. 15-20% would be a good start.

In regards to the svipul *puts on tinfoil hat*. I think CCP purposely made t3ds OP to try and push people into bigger ships. Ive found BCs very effective at killing t3ds. They are rediculously oppressive to other frigs, and you cannot engage most using the usual tactics you use against other dessies when youre flying a frig.


I agree with everything you stated in this post except for the Vagabond.

With the emergence of the HICs after the WDF changes, the kiting meta is coming to an end. With that realization, I'd prefer it if CCP reintroduce the Vagabond as a brawler by dropping it's speed a bit and adding that 5th mid slot. In the days of it's former glory that's what the Vaga was famous for, yes?

As for the Svipul, that ship is doomed to end up the the current Muninn in due time. If it's one thing that CCP is consistent in doing is knocking off any ship that Minnie has at the top, straight to the bottom.
RuleoftheBone
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-01-06 04:58:44 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
RuleoftheBone wrote:
The Vagabond was formerly THE premier kiting heavy tackle and frig/dessie killer.

I am not advocating returning it to OP speed status of yore; however, make it a skilled pilots ship of choice again.
Aside from speed....perhaps think outside the box and give it the option to fit missiles up top? Something different?

As far as the Muninn goes perhaps a painter bonus and the PG to fit arty without a sham tank?

I find it sad that both ships remain non-realistic options for serious pilots in 2016.

Lol where are you going to fit that TP tho?


Mejor de nada.....in that dreamy new mid-slot the POS won't get.

Oh well. There are plenty of valid ideas in this thread. The guns themselves seem ok....its just the slot layout and bonus that remains amiss with Minnie HACs. I would be happy for the additional mid on each and nothing else.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#54 - 2016-01-06 19:52:54 UTC
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:


I agree with everything you stated in this post except for the Vagabond.

With the emergence of the HICs after the WDF changes, the kiting meta is coming to an end. With that realization, I'd prefer it if CCP reintroduce the Vagabond as a brawler by dropping it's speed a bit and adding that 5th mid slot. In the days of it's former glory that's what the Vaga was famous for, yes?

As for the Svipul, that ship is doomed to end up the the current Muninn in due time. If it's one thing that CCP is consistent in doing is knocking off any ship that Minnie has at the top, straight to the bottom.


The former glory of the vaga saw it more as a kiter. Only recently (i think retribution expansion) has it become better at brawling than kiting (mainly because medium a/c's are garbage for kiting). However, i don't believe the vaga is actually that great of a brawler. It works, don't get me wrong, but its still sub-par, especially compared to real brawlers like a deimos.

The muninn is actually better suited to brawling with its bonuses. 425mm a/c's with tracking bonus and optimal bonus actually have decent range and damage (in the confines of brawling anyway). No one can really brawl with it that well because of its slot layout. I've made a FW dual rep brawler muninn which actually worked ok, but it really needs that 4th mid for a web, so i can upgrade to an MWD for nullsec.

[Muninn, Brawler]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Gyrostabilizer II

10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Hobgoblin II x5

Dps is alittle weak (480ish), but you have a medium neut, which most other HAC's can't fit and gives it an advantage over a deimos. Since it can neut and shoot into the explosive or EM hole. With standard exile and OH reps (cold hardeners) you can still get about a 700dps tank. Overheating hardeners can get you near 900dps omni tank. So the potential is there for a good brawler, it just needs a 4th mid to make it happen. Little more dps wouldn't hurt either.
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#55 - 2016-01-07 07:17:28 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:


I agree with everything you stated in this post except for the Vagabond.

With the emergence of the HICs after the WDF changes, the kiting meta is coming to an end. With that realization, I'd prefer it if CCP reintroduce the Vagabond as a brawler by dropping it's speed a bit and adding that 5th mid slot. In the days of it's former glory that's what the Vaga was famous for, yes?

As for the Svipul, that ship is doomed to end up the the current Muninn in due time. If it's one thing that CCP is consistent in doing is knocking off any ship that Minnie has at the top, straight to the bottom.


The former glory of the vaga saw it more as a kiter. Only recently (i think retribution expansion) has it become better at brawling than kiting (mainly because medium a/c's are garbage for kiting). However, i don't believe the vaga is actually that great of a brawler. It works, don't get me wrong, but its still sub-par, especially compared to real brawlers like a deimos.

The muninn is actually better suited to brawling with its bonuses. 425mm a/c's with tracking bonus and optimal bonus actually have decent range and damage (in the confines of brawling anyway). No one can really brawl with it that well because of its slot layout. I've made a FW dual rep brawler muninn which actually worked ok, but it really needs that 4th mid for a web, so i can upgrade to an MWD for nullsec.

[Muninn, Brawler]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Gyrostabilizer II

10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Hobgoblin II x5

Dps is alittle weak (480ish), but you have a medium neut, which most other HAC's can't fit and gives it an advantage over a deimos. Since it can neut and shoot into the explosive or EM hole. With standard exile and OH reps (cold hardeners) you can still get about a 700dps tank. Overheating hardeners can get you near 900dps omni tank. So the potential is there for a good brawler, it just needs a 4th mid to make it happen. Little more dps wouldn't hurt either.


I see, you're the thinking outside the box type. I never thought about using 425s or ACs period on the Muninn. I'm guessing 425s are what you're using on your Hurricane Fleets as well? I can see a ship with a Optimal and Tracking bonus to be potentially potent when using med ACs with the proper slot layouts. Now more than ever I want the Muninn to be given a 4th mid slot.


Edit: Gosh that Hurricane Fleet Issue has 10% Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed per level???Shocked
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#56 - 2016-01-07 13:55:27 UTC
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:


I see, you're the thinking outside the box type. I never thought about using 425s or ACs period on the Muninn. I'm guessing 425s are what you're using on your Hurricane Fleets as well? I can see a ship with a Optimal and Tracking bonus to be potentially potent when using med ACs with the proper slot layouts. Now more than ever I want the Muninn to be given a 4th mid slot.


Edit: Gosh that Hurricane Fleet Issue has 10% Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed per level???Shocked


i use 720's on my fleet cane, but i use it to kite, since arty can project, unlike a/c's. 425's are viable as well if you want to brawl with it, since you'll get a nice tracking bump with them.
KitCat 01
Based And Redpilled.
#57 - 2016-01-30 04:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: KitCat 01
I'm a minmatar pilot and EFT warrior with HAC V who like to play solo and tiny fleets.
Before the Hurricane buff, I was playing the Muninn with 720s for small gang nano armor and it was pretty fun.
Now, this ship has been replaced with an arty hurricane and arty hurricane fleet issue, as you get a sweet MJD, and a very sweet alpha and projection.
I used to fly the vagabond as well, but then each time I have flown one I had to deal with orthruses and gilas. Each time it didn't go well as it is so easy to get scrammed by an orthrus and it is insanely hard to kill a gila.
With Minnie ships if you can't escape the incomming dps you tend to die pretty quickly.

However, If you like to use an oversized AB instead of a MWD and brawl, you'll feel very great in each of minmatar HACs
Here are a few ideas:

For the Muninn it's quite easy:
-Dual 180mm
-Medium neut

-Scram
-100MN AB
-Cap booster

-Medium armor Rep + medium ancillary armor rep
-Explosive + kinetic armor hardener
-Gyro
-Damage control

-medium ancillary current router
-medium auxillary nano pump

For the Vaga, you'll need a tiny bit of pimp (33-100M for a Pith large shield booster)
-Dual 180mm
-Medium neut

-Scram
-100MN AB
-Pith-C/B/A Type Large shield booster
-Cap Booster

-Damage control
-Reactor Control Unit
-Gyros x2 + nanofiber / 3 Gyros

-Medium ancillary current router T2
-Medium Projectile burst aerator / anything you like

The good part:
each time the tank is actually fairly good especially with exile/blue pill bosters, the sig radius of your ship is pretty low for a cruiser and your damage application will be great if you don't go for crazy low orbits.
Plus you can give the finger to those HICs, Orthruses, Arazu etc...
the bad part:
simply forget about tackling and slingshots. the acceleration and agility of your ship will be **** and it is to my opinion a freaking bad point as you will get kitted. If you are, just try to warp away

This is the only niche I can find where using those HACs is justified over other ships What?
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2016-04-28 13:15:33 UTC
It's been a bit since this has been brought up, but now that the Hurricane Fleet Issue has been around for a while, it's becoming increasingly clear that the Muninn has simply been replaced by the new fleet Cane. The roles of the two ships are identical, and the Cane is just better. The Munnin needs a new role.

I propose that the Muninn should be a hard-hitting shield cruiser. Change two of the lows to mids, for a 6/5/4 slot layout and change out the tracking bonus for another 5% medium projectile damage bonus. That way, you can either fly them as in your face A/C brawlers with a nuet, or super shield arty Ruptures, able to project much further.


The Vagabond thrived on being a disrupt kiter, but now, with ships like the Orthrus, it's just outclassed in this role.

I would suggest removing the utility high and trading it for another mid-slot for a beautiful 5/5/5 slot layout, to make some more tanking options possible, and then replace the shield boost bonus with an MWD speed bonus. That way, the Vaga will gain a clear speed advantage over the Orthrus without making it flat out better or turning it into a scram kite monster like a speed-mode Svipul.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#59 - 2016-04-28 14:08:00 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Let's be fair here, either Med Proj or minnie HAC need some serious love.

Pick one, but don't try and deny there are issues, that's a bit like saying the earth is flat in 2016...


Excuse me, but are you saying the earth isn't flat?

We beg to differ

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
Zich Masor
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2016-04-28 14:57:20 UTC
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:
This is getting old now. I mean c'mon, how long will you keep Minnie HACs below sea level of usefulness is beyond me. In most cases now, pilots just flat out give up on using Minnie HACs in favor of the either the Deimos/Sacrilege/Ishtar for brawling and Ishtar/Zealot/Eagle/Cerberus for sniping.

Is that a coincidence? I don't think so. Why? Well for one they don't have wasted utility highs like the Minnie HACs do. So for starters I purpose that you get rid of the wasted utility high-slot on the Minnie HACs and give them an additional mid-slot.




Vagabond is in a really good position right now, sitting as one of the strongest solo hacs in the game, where as ironically the muninn is sitting at the weakest. Not because its terrible, but because the T1 hurricane does the same job, but better.


The muninn could really do with some bonuses that bring out the advantages in a more durable boat than the vagabond, something with more fleet based applications. Perhaps changing the turrets and slots to accomodate autocannons and artillary equally will help people use these ships in brawling fleets.
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