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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3101 - 2015-12-27 23:10:53 UTC
King Aires wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I have to say, it's pretty weird to read complaints by "new" players that EVE is a fully non consensual PvP model - over twelve years after it was launched.


Shouldn't be weird to you, as EVE has been dying for that entire time because of said non consensual pvp lol.



See, that is what really bothers me about you. Doesn't matter what people actually say, you make the narrative for them by coming up with lies.

My problem with Eve and why I think it is dying is the homogenization of sov sec and power creep in pvp.

0.0 has nothing to fight over because every system can be upgraded, moons are not nearly as important and true sec doesn't matter because belt ratting is dead.

Svipuls, Command Destroyers, bigger, better, faster cruisers have all made entire parts of this game old and outdated. Also the price of things have dropped and isk is so easy to come by (thanks plex), that losing a ship doesn't "hurt" anymore. Only real reason anymore to not fly shinny ships is to keep your killboard positive.

So before you come here in your usual condescending and wholesale pathological manner, try and understand that not all viewpoints on this game are ganker vs. gankee.


You need to take your medication dude, because this is the second time you've replied to me when I haven't even addressed you.

WTF are you talking about anyway?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#3102 - 2015-12-27 23:18:29 UTC
Cam Me'Leone wrote:
To your point, I wasn't aware I needed to treat mining in hi-sec the same as mining in low-sec. Things have changed a lot in 3 years.

For the better, thanks to our Saviour and Supreme Protector of Highsec James 315 (Hollowed by thy name)

Evil RatKid
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3103 - 2015-12-27 23:23:53 UTC
King Aires wrote:
...
My problem with Eve and why I think it is dying is the homogenization of sov sec and power creep in pvp.

0.0 has nothing to fight over because every system can be upgraded, moons are not nearly as important and true sec doesn't matter because belt ratting is dead.

... Also the price of things have dropped and isk is so easy to come by (thanks plex), that losing a ship doesn't "hurt" anymore. Only real reason anymore to not fly shinny ships is to keep your killboard positive.

... not all viewpoints on this game are ganker vs. gankee.

My problem is not being able to test sov space with a decent opportunity due to boycott, or blockades...

Not every one like this style of marginalizing competition.
Of course, there are many legal worthwhile and ingenious ways to fight this, but consider that having a network of 10+ intelligence personnel and mercenaries is not all cookie cutter.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#3104 - 2015-12-28 00:57:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
mallak face me
if you're man enough

Oh god.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3105 - 2015-12-28 06:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lots of Lucas Kell dribble.


A SpaceMonkey is as a SpaceMonkey does, after all.

When literally everything you say is wrong, and it's essay length, I'm not going to bother arguing. There's no point with you. You are going to believe whatever you want to believe, regardless of the actual facts. I will point out a couple of things though.

Obvious to you =/= obvious to everyone. Intentions assumed are not obvious intentions, and without evidence, you are assuming. If something is obvious, then it should be really easy to provide a citation. 2+2=4 is obvious, for example. Intentions of CCP, without a statement to them, is not.

This game can be played casually, but it's not a casual game. Casual games don't require subscriptions, and don't require time and energy investment to get to endgame content, or where an endgame doesn't exist, the most high-end goals available. This game is functionally ideal for hobbyists, not casuals. Ease of gameplay does not a casual game make. Investment required is the key determining factor.

Now please, carry on with your denial. I'll not be addressing it further in the assurance that CCP are big boys and girls and are wholly capable of ignoring your complete and utter stupid.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3106 - 2015-12-28 06:52:21 UTC

Cam Me'Leone wrote:
The gankers are pretty clear that they believe EVE would be "better" without players like me.


I need to address this, because it's really important that you understand that this is your own mind playing tricks on you.

The gankers want want the gankers want. Some do it for their killboards, and don't care what you do. Some do it because they see you sitting there, afk, and want you to learn something. And the best way to learn how not to take an arrow to the knee is to learn how not to stand still and and be an easy enough target that they can hit you in the knee in the first place.

Here's the thing: you choose how you play. If you choose to be an easy target, you will be singled out over those that choose not to be. So when you say, "players like me", if you're talking about easy targets, then actually, many people in the game welcome your inclusion in it whole-heartedly, if for no other reason than their killboard padding.

If you're a hard target though, and not worth messing with, then you have free run of the game. But again, that's a choice you have to make, to learn from your experience, rather than give up and pout about it.

Think about when you learned to ride a bike. When you fell off, did you assume the bike didn't want you to ride it? Or did you get back on and try again? I mean, even if this analogy doesn't apply to you, the message is the same: you won't achieve anything that you want to with this attitude that nobody wants you here. Because at the end of the day, the only person actually saying that is you.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3107 - 2015-12-28 09:25:23 UTC
Buzz Orti wrote:
My problem is not being able to test sov space with a decent opportunity due to boycott, or blockades...

Hmm, have you tested a sov laser before?

It's too late to use an interceptor, but there are alternatives you might find an interesting experience...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3108 - 2015-12-28 11:40:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Cam Me'Leone wrote:
I think I have the answers I was looking for.

The prevailing opinion seems to be "if you walk down the street in New Eden in broad daylight without a gun on your hip; you should expect to get mugged" PVP is a requirement; a fact of life.

You found the answer you were looking for as part of a mission to post badly on eveo forums.

+1 karma


+2 damn it

He did inadvertently describe what EVE is, what makes it great, what has drawn many of us to it (I'm from Texas, EVE feels like home Twisted), and what the (as Remy put it) the 'Casualificaiton" (anti-challenge) crowd wants to see destroyed. Hell, it's what CCP has been eroding for the last few years in the understandable but ultimately misguided attempt to broaden the appeal of this game.

By trying to contain/curtail the 'bad people' in the game , CCP has done nothing but nerf those of us who thrived on opposing and surviving against them without 'developer hand outs'.

You can't destroy the core appeal of a game and then be surprised when it declines...



All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3109 - 2015-12-28 13:36:29 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.


Yes, if CCP would be more proud of their PVP sandbox instead of downplaying it then that might cost some customers who'd just void it right from the start but it would help people ease in to it all, overall it would be a good thing.
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#3110 - 2015-12-28 14:59:57 UTC
HOW is this thread still here? is the OP bumping it relentlessly, or is everyone honestly still debating this topic?

I've read back through some of the posts but it seems it went a little off topic a few times.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3111 - 2015-12-28 15:28:53 UTC
MidnightWyvern wrote:
HOW is this thread still here? is the OP bumping it relentlessly, or is everyone honestly still debating this topic?

I've read back through some of the posts but it seems it went a little off topic a few times.


They keep lining up new alts to try and push a narrative.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3112 - 2015-12-28 15:37:01 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
MidnightWyvern wrote:
HOW is this thread still here? is the OP bumping it relentlessly, or is everyone honestly still debating this topic?

I've read back through some of the posts but it seems it went a little off topic a few times.


They keep lining up new alts to try and push a narrative.


If people keep making alts to push a narative, they might solve the subs number issue right there!!!
Solecist Project
#3113 - 2015-12-28 15:41:44 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
MidnightWyvern wrote:
HOW is this thread still here? is the OP bumping it relentlessly, or is everyone honestly still debating this topic?

I've read back through some of the posts but it seems it went a little off topic a few times.


They keep lining up new alts to try and push a narrative.

No one cared about my threads regarding the narrative ...
... yet people constantly fall for those who push theirs onto them.

No offense to you, because you are a fine and honest person ...
... but you all deserve this.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3114 - 2015-12-28 15:42:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.


This probably has something to do with the amount of threads about criminal activity we see here. People see a police presence in EVE and probably make link to what they are used to IRL and expect people to behave as such. RL crimes ends up with jail time and such while in EVE, it ends with your "weapon" getting destroyed for a set amount of time and overzealous traffic units being on the case of repeat offenders. If you don't demonstrate and clearly state the disconnect, people will assume it will be similar even if your game is intended not to be at all.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3115 - 2015-12-28 16:11:49 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.


This probably has something to do with the amount of threads about criminal activity we see here. People see a police presence in EVE and probably make link to what they are used to IRL and expect people to behave as such. RL crimes ends up with jail time and such while in EVE, it ends with your "weapon" getting destroyed for a set amount of time and overzealous traffic units being on the case of repeat offenders. If you don't demonstrate and clearly state the disconnect, people will assume it will be similar even if your game is intended not to be at all.



To be fair, I would not find bad if the consequences were tweaked to fit a bit closer to that perception. I for once would like more a non magical police, that would not appear instantly and surely destroy you, but at same time would not forgive you so easily. Something simple and more immersive (personal opinion) would be a police force that takes longer to come to rescue you, when it arrives you are not sure to be destroyed, you can try to run from it and you should be able to do it. But you should remain criminally wanted for a very long period of time or until you paid for your crime (money for example, or with public service (forced to PVE against npc pirates .. come on that would be a real punishment for some people :P ). You could pay the price or just be forced to stay in low sec for several weeks, maybe months.. Again, this is just personal opinion but I think would have been a better game and the newcomers would not feel so betrayed by the police (even though they would be even less secure)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3116 - 2015-12-28 17:11:20 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.


This probably has something to do with the amount of threads about criminal activity we see here. People see a police presence in EVE and probably make link to what they are used to IRL and expect people to behave as such. RL crimes ends up with jail time and such while in EVE, it ends with your "weapon" getting destroyed for a set amount of time and overzealous traffic units being on the case of repeat offenders. If you don't demonstrate and clearly state the disconnect, people will assume it will be similar even if your game is intended not to be at all.



To be fair, I would not find bad if the consequences were tweaked to fit a bit closer to that perception. I for once would like more a non magical police, that would not appear instantly and surely destroy you, but at same time would not forgive you so easily. Something simple and more immersive (personal opinion) would be a police force that takes longer to come to rescue you, when it arrives you are not sure to be destroyed, you can try to run from it and you should be able to do it. But you should remain criminally wanted for a very long period of time or until you paid for your crime (money for example, or with public service (forced to PVE against npc pirates .. come on that would be a real punishment for some people :P ). You could pay the price or just be forced to stay in low sec for several weeks, maybe months.. Again, this is just personal opinion but I think would have been a better game and the newcomers would not feel so betrayed by the police (even though they would be even less secure)


The issue I have with that is we are dealing with code so once you find how to beat it, it's borderline useless. Once people found a way to not lose their ship to CONCORD, they would never lose it unless they messed up. There is no secret movement sequence IRL to evade the cops because they always adapt to what you do. CONCORD can't pull that off. The "donctrine" would switch from "bring as many cheap cata to gank it" to "bring as many talos as needed to kill it fast enough and have time to initiate the evasion"... People would lose their ship in the beginning while they figure out the way to pull it off and then figure it out and just apply it as a script.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3117 - 2015-12-28 17:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.


This probably has something to do with the amount of threads about criminal activity we see here. People see a police presence in EVE and probably make link to what they are used to IRL and expect people to behave as such. RL crimes ends up with jail time and such while in EVE, it ends with your "weapon" getting destroyed for a set amount of time and overzealous traffic units being on the case of repeat offenders. If you don't demonstrate and clearly state the disconnect, people will assume it will be similar even if your game is intended not to be at all.



To be fair, I would not find bad if the consequences were tweaked to fit a bit closer to that perception. I for once would like more a non magical police, that would not appear instantly and surely destroy you, but at same time would not forgive you so easily. Something simple and more immersive (personal opinion) would be a police force that takes longer to come to rescue you, when it arrives you are not sure to be destroyed, you can try to run from it and you should be able to do it. But you should remain criminally wanted for a very long period of time or until you paid for your crime (money for example, or with public service (forced to PVE against npc pirates .. come on that would be a real punishment for some people :P ). You could pay the price or just be forced to stay in low sec for several weeks, maybe months.. Again, this is just personal opinion but I think would have been a better game and the newcomers would not feel so betrayed by the police (even though they would be even less secure)


The issue I have with that is we are dealing with code so once you find how to beat it, it's borderline useless. Once people found a way to not lose their ship to CONCORD, they would never lose it unless they messed up. There is no secret movement sequence IRL to evade the cops because they always adapt to what you do. CONCORD can't pull that off. The "donctrine" would switch from "bring as many cheap cata to gank it" to "bring as many talos as needed to kill it fast enough and have time to initiate the evasion"... People would lose their ship in the beginning while they figure out the way to pull it off and then figure it out and just apply it as a script.


Yes, but that is the point. The punishment would not be to lose the ship, but the fact that they would be unable to dock in high sec for months (until they pay the price), and they would be hunted and harassed by NPC ships, fired immediately by gate guns... when they tried to enter high sec. That would make very very annoying to make repeated ganks in high sec. Making a single gank would be easier, to keep doing it several times per day would become harder (you simply could NOT wait 15 minutes). And just to be clear, on my concept police would not stop trying to kill you just because they already killed you once... That means the system would not be an attempt to make eye for an eye trade, but a total social and economic trashing of the offenders for a time period, safe for repention (like the fore mentioned forced dull pve work).

You might need to add other mechnics of course, for example if you harbor a criminal you get a criminal tag (also permanent) yourself, and that include orca/refitting work in space.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3118 - 2015-12-28 17:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit not to help you be happy the day they close down to appease your tastes till the bitter end.

Also, CCP has to create Valkyrie separated from EvE because of those like you who can't accept any change or evolution.
This annoys me to no end, because CCP indeed HAS to keep Valkyrie separated to avoid annoying the old bears too much. But by doing so:

1) Those like me who are waiting for true SPACE ship combat in a SPACE ship game since years are going to have to restart another game, whereas Valkyrie would fit into EvE like a glove.

2) CCP are going to have to maintain two games. The result SHALL be bad, because:

- Either Valkyrie thrives (but it comes soooooooooooooo late after competition) and CCP shall put EvE on the backburner.

- Or CCP will go the "we must preserve our chicken with the golden eggs" mode like they have done in the past and will leave Valkyrie to wither and die like they did in the past with their other products.


All of this because conservative players want to sleep on their comfy bed until that bed becomes a coffin.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3119 - 2015-12-28 17:40:08 UTC
Cam Me'Leone wrote:
I think I have the answers I was looking for.

I'm a casual player. I can scrounge together about 5 hours a week (30-60 minutes at a time) to myself. That's my time. It will take 2-3 months for me to recoup my losses. During which time I'm likely to get ganked again. It's a never ending spiral down to bankruptcy. For no other reason than someone wants to feel good about being able to hinder someone else.

I thought EVE was a game I could play a little at a time. Unlike other online games where I might need 2 hours of uninterrupted time to run a mission.

I also thought it would be the kind of game where I could mind my own business and not be bothered or go in for something more (like pvp) when I have the time. If I was a big PVP guy with unlimited time to play, I'd buy a PS4.

The gankers are pretty clear that they believe EVE would be "better" without players like me.

I posted here to see if that was a minority opinion or a prevailing one. The prevailing opinion seems to be "if you walk down the street in New Eden in broad daylight without a gun on your hip; you should expect to get mugged" PVP is a requirement; a fact of life. That's fine if that's the answer. I'm not here to try and change anyone's opinion.

I posted my questions in this thread because it's about subscriptions. CCP clearly wants old players to come back (or else I wouldn't have gotten 3 months of play time for $10). I can't speak for "everyone". But I can speak for myself and other casual players like me. We are not welcome in EVE. There is no way to avoid the noids. EVE is not the game I am looking for.


You are wrong. EvE is NOT the game for who wants to "mind his own business".

The newer games cover your kind of playstyle, with their "switchable being a MMO or single player", so you can mine at your leisure in solo and pew pew in MMO mode.
In EvE you are meant to play "the classic way" and this is not accessible or possible to everyone.

I loved playing "the EvE way" until one day my RL obligations forced me into the "limited time guy" role and since then I miss my EvE days but I had to switch to other EvE activities that did not require such a dedication.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
PsiMin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3120 - 2015-12-28 18:08:28 UTC
Cam Me'Leone wrote:
So, to sum up, nobody needs or likes hi-sec miners.
If newbies loose a week or months worth of work because a ganker thought it'd be fun or cool to pop a sitting duck (which is what a barge is for a catalyst), it's the newbies fault for being weak & if they don't want to join pvp, you guys don't want them here anyway.

Good to know.

One thing I'm curious about, how is suicide ganking in hi-sec at all profitable? It seems to be about destruction of property, not gains. Can someone please explain how blowing yourself up is profitable?



Its not about isk, unless some good mods are installed on ships, its a lot about cause they can, or just to cause grief.