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Pricing for new buy orders
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Khara Taredi
Parallel Production
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2015-12-20 04:03:11 UTC
This has been bugging me for a while now and there's probably a thread about it but i can't find it.
Why is it that when I press the "Place Buy Order" button it defaults the price to the lowest sell order? This does not make sense at all.
I'm not interested in buying for that price otherwise i'd just right right click the lowest sell order and buy the item.

So you could please change it so that when I click that button it'll default to the highest BUY order price (+0.01 isk if you're really awesome)?
That way I only have to enter an amount and that's it. It'll also prevent me from accidentally adding an extra digit which hasn't happened yet but it's a matter of time till it does I suspect.
It's just a little QoL change but it I'd be so happy if you changed it.
Iain Cariaba
#2 - 2015-12-20 04:58:03 UTC
Khara Taredi wrote:
This has been bugging me for a while now and there's probably a thread about it but i can't find it.
Why is it that when I press the "Place Buy Order" button it defaults the price to the lowest sell order? This does not make sense at all.
I'm not interested in buying for that price otherwise i'd just right right click the lowest sell order and buy the item.

So you could please change it so that when I click that button it'll default to the highest BUY order price (+0.01 isk if you're really awesome)?
That way I only have to enter an amount and that's it. It'll also prevent me from accidentally adding an extra digit which hasn't happened yet but it's a matter of time till it does I suspect.
It's just a little QoL change but it I'd be so happy if you changed it.

No. It's already idiotically simple to look at the market and type in the price that's .01 isk higher. You don't need further ease of automation for your market bot program.
Khara Taredi
Parallel Production
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2015-12-20 05:09:28 UTC
It has nothing to do with being hard or simple. It's just a QoL change that would actually make sense.
Also this is for NEW buy orders not to update existing ones to make 0.01isking easier.

And if I was writing a market bot there would be no reason for this since I could just get up to date pricing from the cache, through CREST or export to csv and read the file.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#4 - 2015-12-20 05:21:42 UTC
Isn't this how sell orders work as well? Automatically sets the price to the highest purchase order.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Khara Taredi
Parallel Production
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2015-12-20 05:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Khara Taredi
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Isn't this how sell orders work as well? Automatically sets the price to the highest purchase order.


That's right. However there's only 1 way to sell items (that i know off) and that's by right clicking them and clicking "Sell This Item" and then it really comes down to a design choice. Do you want to make it easy for people who want isk NOW or for people who don't mind waiting but get a better price.

But because there's 2 ways to buy items, of which I assume most people will right click a sell order, I'd like the buy order button to actually place a buy order and therefor default to the current highest buy order price + 0.01 isk. Although I wouldn't mind flicking my scroll wheel once to add that 0.01 isk myself.
Iain Cariaba
#6 - 2015-12-20 09:13:06 UTC
Khara Taredi wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Isn't this how sell orders work as well? Automatically sets the price to the highest purchase order.


That's right. However there's only 1 way to sell items (that i know off) and that's by right clicking them and clicking "Sell This Item" and then it really comes down to a design choice. Do you want to make it easy for people who want isk NOW or for people who don't mind waiting but get a better price.

But because there's 2 ways to buy items, of which I assume most people will right click a sell order, I'd like the buy order button to actually place a buy order and therefor default to the current highest buy order price + 0.01 isk. Although I wouldn't mind flicking my scroll wheel once to add that 0.01 isk myself.

When you're looking to buy, the system assumes you want to buy now, so it puts in the lowest sell price.
When you're looking to sell, the system assumes you want to sell now, so it puts in the lowest buy price.
If you want to wait, then you shouldn't mind taking the time to type in the price you want to buy/sell at.

If you just want some isk, fill buy orders. If you want an item right away, buy from sell orders. If you want to be greedy and milk the most out of your tradeing, put a modicum of effort into it.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2015-12-20 11:25:05 UTC
Surely it must be possible to compare the amount of items bought instantly with the buy button against the amount orders made with the buy button.

if its overwhelmingly one way or the other then i dont see why QOL changes cant be made to suit demand.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#8 - 2015-12-21 02:04:07 UTC
That's odd...

When I click the button it defaults to some random numbers - it could have the lyrics to rodolph the red-nosed reinder, for all I care... I automatically overwrite that, with my price

I also fail to understand why you would want it to default to 0.01... either you want to buy or sell.... or just be a pointless annoyance in the market
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#9 - 2015-12-21 02:12:55 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
If you want to be greedy and milk the most out of your tradeing, put a modicum of effort into it.


I agree with your sentiments

And would add that one of the silliest warning messages is the one that says you are trying buy this at 10,000% below the regional average - yeah I know - because I can sell it to the numpty that wants you to automatically set buy orders at 0.01 above whatever the current average price is....

So on balance... perhaps we should support the proposal - and just wait for the complaints, and count our dosh...
Iain Cariaba
#10 - 2015-12-21 03:02:16 UTC
Paul Pohl wrote:
That's odd...

When I click the button it defaults to some random numbers - it could have the lyrics to rodolph the red-nosed reinder, for all I care... I automatically overwrite that, with my price

I also fail to understand why you would want it to default to 0.01... either you want to buy or sell.... or just be a pointless annoyance in the market

No, OP wants the price for his buy orders to automatically be .01 isk better than his competition.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#11 - 2015-12-21 03:12:55 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Paul Pohl wrote:
That's odd...

When I click the button it defaults to some random numbers - it could have the lyrics to rodolph the red-nosed reinder, for all I care... I automatically overwrite that, with my price

I also fail to understand why you would want it to default to 0.01... either you want to buy or sell.... or just be a pointless annoyance in the market

No, OP wants the price for his buy orders to automatically be .01 isk better than his competition.


hence the use of the phrase 'pointless annoyance'

and why anyone looking to make money, stays away from items that attract 0.01 buying and selling
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#12 - 2015-12-21 03:26:13 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Surely it must be possible to compare the amount of items bought instantly with the buy button against the amount orders made with the buy button.

if its overwhelmingly one way or the other then i dont see why QOL changes cant be made to suit demand.


A quick example

pitfall warp disruption whatever.// I don't care... never gonna use it... but I caan get it in missions , how much is it worth?.. comes onto the market.... and you can easily sell it for 12million - the current trading price is @ 2million - if you are lucky... because of the general market, and patterns, and players, etc

There is value there... I'd suggest the real price should be around 4milion

I shan't go into the ins and outs...

But if the proposal by the OP were accepted, this already under-valued item, would forever trade downwards by 0.01 - until it bore little or no relation to the ISK it is geerating elsewhere.

Forget bell cures and CSE economic theories.....
Khara Taredi
Parallel Production
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2015-12-21 04:04:35 UTC
OK I thought what I wanted was rather obvious and I have no idea why you're all bringing all kinds of weird scenarios into this.

So let me be super clear here.
Consider the following:

- Item X's lowest sell order price is 10 isk.
- Item X's highest buy order price is 5 isk.

There's some margin here so I want to create a BUY order for 5.01 isk.
I click the button below the orders in the market screen that reads "Place Buy Order". The little window with the details pops up where the default price will be 10 isk. But I want to place a buy ORDER, not buy the item.

So what I suggest is that when you click that button ("Place Buy Order") the default price in the little window is the current highest buy order price + 0.01isk. That way I don't have to change it from 10 to 5.01

Now let's say I want to buy an item directly. I can right click the lowest sell order and click "Buy Item".

This is a little quality of life change that would make sense. Because I want to make an ORDER not buy something.
And while it's pointless for my example it'll be convenient for items with more than 1 or 2 digits.
This has nothing to do with 0.01isking for UPDATING orders. I'd still have to modify existing buy orders and use the scroll wheel. This is exclusively for the "Place Buy Order" button at the bottom of the market screen to place NEW buy orders.
Iain Cariaba
#14 - 2015-12-21 06:41:28 UTC
Khara Taredi wrote:
OK I thought what I wanted was rather obvious and I have no idea why you're all bringing all kinds of weird scenarios into this.

So let me be super clear here.
Consider the following:

- Item X's lowest sell order price is 10 isk.
- Item X's highest buy order price is 5 isk.

There's some margin here so I want to create a BUY order for 5.01 isk.
I click the button below the orders in the market screen that reads "Place Buy Order". The little window with the details pops up where the default price will be 10 isk. But I want to place a buy ORDER, not buy the item.

So what I suggest is that when you click that button ("Place Buy Order") the default price in the little window is the current highest buy order price + 0.01isk. That way I don't have to change it from 10 to 5.01

Now let's say I want to buy an item directly. I can right click the lowest sell order and click "Buy Item".

This is a little quality of life change that would make sense. Because I want to make an ORDER not buy something.
And while it's pointless for my example it'll be convenient for items with more than 1 or 2 digits.
This has nothing to do with 0.01isking for UPDATING orders. I'd still have to modify existing buy orders and use the scroll wheel. This is exclusively for the "Place Buy Order" button at the bottom of the market screen to place NEW buy orders.

Nope, wasn't confusing at all. You want the system to automatically place your buy orders at .01 isk better than the other people competing for those same items.

News flash: whether you use the button on the market, right click the market listing, use the 'buy this type' from the right click menu in hangar, or modifying an existing buy order, you're using the same buy mechanic.

You should, at no time, have a way to automatically, and without risk of error, be able to one up your opposition iN the form of PvP that is the market.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2015-12-21 07:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Paul Pohl wrote:


But if the proposal by the OP were accepted, this already under-valued item, would forever trade downwards by 0.01 - until it bore little or no relation to the ISK it is geerating elsewhere.


No it wouldnt you've got it the wrong way round. Even assuming that everyone who used the buy button entered the default amount this change would increase prices by 0.01 for every new order.

If we dont assume that people automatically enter the default amount this change simply saves 0.01 traders from typing in a number. Depending on how many do this, it could be a QOL improvement.

Lains concern of making things more automated in a competitive part of the game is the only valid argument against the idea.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Khara Taredi
Parallel Production
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2015-12-21 07:54:49 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Nope, wasn't confusing at all. You want the system to automatically place your buy orders at .01 isk better than the other people competing for those same items.

News flash: whether you use the button on the market, right click the market listing, use the 'buy this type' from the right click menu in hangar, or modifying an existing buy order, you're using the same buy mechanic.

You should, at no time, have a way to automatically, and without risk of error, be able to one up your opposition iN the form of PvP that is the market.


Yes. But the only thing you don't seem to be understanding is that this is only for -> NEW <- orders (i.e. items I don't already have a buy order for) not existing ones.
This wouldn't give me any advantage in competing with others. It won't make it easier to stay at the top. It won't magically update my orders. And it would work the same for everyone else. It only removes a lot of meaningless typing of digits

And if your whole point is that I should manually type the amount just to allow for mistakes then that's just plain stupid. In that case they might as well remove the pop up that warns you when you're about to undock with offline mods and similar warnings.

My guess for the reason why it works like it does is like you said, all the buttons call the same function and that's it. I highly doubt some people at ccp sat down and made the design decision to force people to type the amount so they could make costly mistakes through a simple error that would benefit another player. They basically split the "Bridge to" and "Jump to" options on titans for that specific reason.