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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#6061 - 2015-12-07 20:31:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.

What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies.

Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.

Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand.

The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands.

Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years.
A few things:
1: TSP comes from time
2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time

Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it.

So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money).


Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits.
At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.

If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone.
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6062 - 2015-12-07 20:37:17 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.

What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies.

Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.

Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand.

The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands.

Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years.
A few things:
1: TSP comes from time
2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time

Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it.

So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money).


Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits.
At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.

If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone.


Lies
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#6063 - 2015-12-07 20:37:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

a) No, you're just making the mistake of conflating average wallet values in 2012 with isk earning potential today or any other point in the future. I don't have to argue against official stats because those stats don't actually prove what you're trying to twist them to prove. You're also making an assumption that those that don't have the isk for TSP cannot make it. Your position only holds true if everyone is functioning at their isk making limits and has no further potential for growth. That's a claim you must prove and no stat regarding wallet counts from 2012 will do that.
b) No, you gave an example showing it didn't apply to you personally. If you were the only player in the game that would mean I was wrong, but you aren't. Your personal experience on the matter doesn't constitute me being wrong so long as anyone feels differently.
e) Go find out yourself if you want a number. That said it won't have to be billions per player because for a brand new player 1 TSP doubles their SP and opens options. That's really all you need in some cases.
g) I fully get what you're saying, it's just that between points you self contradict. We have 2 different expectations here. You seem to think no one will buy a PLEX for TSP, I don't think that's correct and there will be some introduction of new PLEX.
h) And the problem here is that you're still assuming that number is a static value not subject to change with game changes. You've yet to justify that. Beyond that there's no issue with waiting and training normally. There's no mandate saying everyone should take advantage of this. Especially those with little familiarity with the skill system as their mistakes are disproportionately expensive.
k) Being undocked makes getting blown up easier
m) You have a very inconsistent stance on whether this will inject new PLEX, claiming it must because people won't be able to participate but won't because people are unwilling to spend.
n) We're discussing the benefits of TSP, such as how it solves an issue created by the Bazaar.


a) Fresh update! I wasnt lazy so i found 2015 situation - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/isk.float.3.png there was a growth of ~75%. So almost double. Let`s say it is double. Average wallet is 1bil isk. So people have all the knowledge they can have yet, they choose to not pursue the isk in the way you expect them. What does it show? That people do not really want to grind isk a lot. Since all the knowledge is available out there, you should expect that everyone would want to have larger stockpile to be able to afford some shiny segment of the game. Considering TSP are going to be at least third of their wallets, can you come up with some conclusion?
b) You do not need to be genius to figure out that what applies to one can apply to others as well. I thought that was quite obvious, sorry for not drawing it. And even if it was just me, still proves you wrong as it means it is already in the game just not used by anyone else except me. So cannot be added as NEW benefit. So in any case you are wrong, but no worries I do not expect you to admit it
e) I expected your logic to be enough. No one is crazy enough to donate hundreds of millions to brand new players for multiple reasons. 1 - Will they utilize it properly, 2 - will they continue to play and be worth of that investment, 3 - will they be valuable player worth investing in, 4- are they just a scammer who made an alt to go around and take TSPs? Just some of the quesitons why sane corp leaders will not give them out as your idea suggests
g) I think i was quite clear when i wrote that supply of plexes can strech up a bit if the prices go up. And demand will grow up for sure. Ie after demand growing, prices will grow up followed by some supply growth. Then supply stops growing and demand is still there, meaning prices go up. Simple as that, not sure how that can be unclear
h) The number is not static but limited. If one plex can get 4 extractors, there is no chance TSP will be cheaper than 1/4th of plex. Simple as that. +Cartels will make sure it goes up above that.
k) Actually if they push them to go to low sec something might be worked out in that direction
m) Not sure what you find inconsistent? See g)
n) No, you were counter argumenting my claim that char bazaar will be still used for all higher sp chars due to diminishing returns. Therefore the char bazaar issue is not solved by TSP.


Still I see no major benefit for player base. For some individuals surely. But if you take in considerations side effects then there is a question "why implement something and risk that can backfire badly when actual benefit is marginal"?

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6064 - 2015-12-07 20:39:10 UTC
"Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits."

You say this with a straight face?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6065 - 2015-12-07 20:41:17 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits.
At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.

If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone.
And again, why does the fact that a pilots SP isn't capped by age a concern? Mechanically yes, it has been impossible to work around this, but that doesn't establish it as a mechanic worth maintaining.

Also by equating progress with a sub you've already created an equivalency of money with progress. That sub had to be paid and enabled your training, thus making it a much more direct purchase of up to just shy of 2m SP than any conversion of PLEX to TSP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#6066 - 2015-12-07 20:43:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Except someone else invested that time it and by purchasing it you can avoid current limits to your original characters (limited by sp/hour). If you are willing to spend the cash you can bypass any time investment at all (even ones currently not doable by purchasing chars of bazaar).
And? Youy've yet to establish why SP/H is anything worthwhile to maintain.

Further you can't use cash to bypass effort or time, but again buy someone else' (where do you think the PLEX seller's isk comes from?).


Because it changes the whole foundation eve was built on. Because it gets it out of its niche. Because it gives customers feeling of inconsistency of the service they are getting. Etc. You would already know if you had read my posts on that subject :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#6067 - 2015-12-07 20:58:45 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits.
At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.

If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone.
And again, why does the fact that a pilots SP isn't capped by age a concern? Mechanically yes, it has been impossible to work around this, but that doesn't establish it as a mechanic worth maintaining.

Also by equating progress with a sub you've already created an equivalency of money with progress. That sub had to be paid and enabled your training, thus making it a much more direct purchase of up to just shy of 2m SP than any conversion of PLEX to TSP.

Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6068 - 2015-12-07 21:01:11 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
a) Fresh update! I wasnt lazy so i found 2015 situation - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/isk.float.3.png there was a growth of ~75%. So almost double. Let`s say it is double. Average wallet is 1bil isk. So people have all the knowledge they can have yet, they choose to not pursue the isk in the way you expect them. What does it show? That people do not really want to grind isk a lot. Since all the knowledge is available out there, you should expect that everyone would want to have larger stockpile to be able to afford some shiny segment of the game. Considering TSP are going to be at least third of their wallets, can you come up with some conclusion?
b) You do not need to be genius to figure out that what applies to one can apply to others as well. I thought that was quite obvious, sorry for not drawing it. And even if it was just me, still proves you wrong as it means it is already in the game just not used by anyone else except me. So cannot be added as NEW benefit. So in any case you are wrong, but no worries I do not expect you to admit it
e) I expected your logic to be enough. No one is crazy enough to donate hundreds of millions to brand new players for multiple reasons. 1 - Will they utilize it properly, 2 - will they continue to play and be worth of that investment, 3 - will they be valuable player worth investing in, 4- are they just a scammer who made an alt to go around and take TSPs? Just some of the quesitons why sane corp leaders will not give them out as your idea suggests
g) I think i was quite clear when i wrote that supply of plexes can strech up a bit if the prices go up. And demand will grow up for sure. Ie after demand growing, prices will grow up followed by some supply growth. Then supply stops growing and demand is still there, meaning prices go up. Simple as that, not sure how that can be unclear
h) The number is not static but limited. If one plex can get 4 extractors, there is no chance TSP will be cheaper than 1/4th of plex. Simple as that. +Cartels will make sure it goes up above that.
k) Actually if they push them to go to low sec something might be worked out in that direction
m) Not sure what you find inconsistent? See g)
n) No, you were counter argumenting my claim that char bazaar will be still used for all higher sp chars due to diminishing returns. Therefore the char bazaar issue is not solved by TSP.


Still I see no major benefit for player base. For some individuals surely. But if you take in considerations side effects then there is a question "why implement something and risk that can backfire badly when actual benefit is marginal"?

a) So basically you found proof earnings potential isn't static. Seeing as that's exactly what I've been saying that pretty much proves my point. Based on the fact that it has changed in the past I don't think we'd be looking at this very realistically if we tried to conclude the numbers would stay that way in the future either. Amazing how that works.
b) You apparently do need to be a genius to figure out that a point doesn't become wrong of invalid unless everyone agrees. You personally cannot act as a counterpoint to someone that does feel that way, nor can anyone else who feels personally the same as you. And considering the benefit for those individuals who do feel that way doesn't exist yet, Id call that pretty new.
e) If their being given TSP by a group they're very likely being guided in use by the group. Regarding the rest, that's a risk taken with every new recruit as is when it comes to services offered for new players. Further it's just game play that's been around forever and hasn't cause the collapse or dysfunction of our social structures.
g) Supply should stretch most with the demand for isk, not the price of PLEX. Hence why high prices aren't instantly self resolving. The driver for PLEX sales is buyers needing isk, and this gives a reason for that.
h) I'm not saying the extractor isn't a fixed cost, I'm saying you're still viewing player earnings as static.
k) Anywhere is more dangerous that being docked
m) At this point I think we're just disagreeing with the idea of what fuels PLEX purchases
n) It's solved by TSP in that TSP creates an alternative to reputation shifting. It doesn't have to kill that the Bazaar in order for that to be true.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6069 - 2015-12-07 21:06:53 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?

That's a hard to swallow justification.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#6070 - 2015-12-07 21:16:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?

That's a hard to swallow justification.

Ive had a few discussions over different aspects but however hard it is to swallow over the money vs time invested quote it becomes reality with the TSP in its current incarnation. However illogical it maybe and in a different league to me you don't know who is behind any pilot and what there finances allow them to do.

If i was in any of those lists and became superseded by cash injected pilot the game would be over.
Headless Prairie Dog
32G
#6071 - 2015-12-07 21:28:40 UTC
Stop all the damn crying. If the game does not make cash you won't have anything to cry about.
Do something else with your time.
These arguments you think you are all making are not as intellectual as you believe they are.
IT's A GAME.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6072 - 2015-12-07 21:32:58 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
I`ve already told you why I`m not doing that. Your logic is shortsighted and self centric. I`m not wasting my time to seek that out only to provide you something you can do yourself. Plus, as I already stated, my cause and your cause are totally different. You fight for your personal cause, I fight for game sake. You are actually the one manipulating and just want to "win" at any cost since you think you are getting something. Actually YOU are the one who wanted answers and I told you where you can find them. As I already wrote it, this will be implemented and a year after it we will see who was right about it. I really hope it would be you, but due to all anecdotes I had with this game and all the side effects I mentioned I highly suspect that outcome.

And again, I am not dodging anything. You dodged to read them and comment them. In past (as you were active on the topic at that time) and now as well. I own you nothing and I can only look at you as an enemy since you are fighting for something which I see will cause a serious damage to the game. I can be polite but forget courtesy. I am not obliging you to anything at all, I just pointed out that if you want them you can read them. You have as many chances to do that as you want :)
I'm aware of what you said, and I find the motivation to be lazy and self serving. If you want to try looking clever by turning those words back again fine. Just be aware that I find your stance ill supported and while I'll point it out on arguments you bring forth I won't seek out ones just as ill constructed to make you feel better.

That said everytime you do bring it up I'll continue confirming your intellectual laziness. I've given you several opportunities to confront me with them. That you won't is pretty telling.

Quote:
I did not refute them. I refuted some which are wrong and some logical fallacies. On some I have agreed. But I keep stressing out that side effects are bigger than benefit. And that is why I am strongly against this idea.
No, on that subject you asserted your observations could effectively classify the player base and further didn't actually establish a clear detriment. Remember, the issue of anecdote was limited to your claim about you observations of player development vs SP, not all of your arguments and opinions.

Also you're very weak on stating these side effects as well, but again we know the reason for that.

Quote:
Lol. You have been active on this topic when those were posted. Yet you did not read/challenge them. Ie I have covered the subject weeks ago. And I am the one to blame if you act that you just showed up here and we should provide you links to previous discussions or whatever. Are you some official judge who will make a decision on the subject? Get real :D

As I mentioned already, if you were fighting for the games sake I would probably do it. But you are just posting to "win" over other side, you are not having discussion, you are waging private forum war over a subject you have no influence at all (neither does anyone else as CCP care about players feedback obviously). At least not like lootit and similar though.

I can`t copy/paste it since I do not remember where they are. And even posting here at all is a waste of time I can afford that much. But I do not want to search through the page 1 to find them. If CCP got the message then great, it was for them. Hope they will make sure to cover all possible side effects or at least assure as that will not happen. If anyone else wants to read it and think about it, put an effort. I`ll gladly repeat as often as you "challenge" . Simple as that.

For my ad hominem attacks I apologize. I was under impression that you and me have the same cause just the different POVs and I wanted to push you into taking someone`s else POV to see what I am talking about. Meanwhile I realized that your POV is after your own interests and while perfectly understandable stance, that is something totally unacceptable for me. For rationality of arguments, please respond to the list to provide the same. As now we got it to fundamentals, most of assumptions is out of play.

1. Now you openly lie, you just said that your skills were above your sp when you flew drake and were offered T3 :)
2. Interesting, how can you see through it when you did not read it?
3. As mentioned above I labeled you in order to "push" you to try other perspective. Later on I realized that since the start of the topic your POV and aim was the same. Not discussion and making the good for the game but just to win in fight for your personal benefit. Which is still egocentrical but acceptable since you fight for your own not for game, but it is same like discussion with Dror - a waste of time since the main ideas are totally diametrically opposed.
I am posting for the games sake. I am posting because I believe this to be beneficial, even if I as a player have no use for it. But your selfcentric way of thinking concludes that can't be the case since you're convinced any person doing so would have to come to your same conclusion, or so it would appear.

1) No I didn't. I said my SP only barely allowed the piloting of a drake and NOT a T3, making the offer of one useless to me. I never claimed I was able to be a capable pilot of one or even that I am capable now.
2) You're currently posting and presenting your reasoning. There is more than enough for me to respond to and observe what you're doing. Including the next bit.
3) Fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. You haven't done anything remotely close to properly describing me as a player, so it's no wonder you've done such a poor job of guessing my motivations.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#6073 - 2015-12-07 21:33:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
a) So basically you found proof earnings potential isn't static. Seeing as that's exactly what I've been saying that pretty much proves my point. Based on the fact that it has changed in the past I don't think we'd be looking at this very realistically if we tried to conclude the numbers would stay that way in the future either. Amazing how that works.
b) You apparently do need to be a genius to figure out that a point doesn't become wrong of invalid unless everyone agrees. You personally cannot act as a counterpoint to someone that does feel that way, nor can anyone else who feels personally the same as you. And considering the benefit for those individuals who do feel that way doesn't exist yet, Id call that pretty new.
e) If their being given TSP by a group they're very likely being guided in use by the group. Regarding the rest, that's a risk taken with every new recruit as is when it comes to services offered for new players. Further it's just game play that's been around forever and hasn't cause the collapse or dysfunction of our social structures.
g) Supply should stretch most with the demand for isk, not the price of PLEX. Hence why high prices aren't instantly self resolving. The driver for PLEX sales is buyers needing isk, and this gives a reason for that.
h) I'm not saying the extractor isn't a fixed cost, I'm saying you're still viewing player earnings as static.
k) Anywhere is more dangerous that being docked
m) At this point I think we're just disagreeing with the idea of what fuels PLEX purchases
n) It's solved by TSP in that TSP creates an alternative to reputation shifting. It doesn't have to kill that the Bazaar in order for that to be true.


a) Quality of your posting is going downhill. No one ever said it is static. Other way we would all be at 0 isk as that is how much we start with. I stated that even though people have skills and knowledge they will not pursue in grinding the isk as much as you expect. If we really go into details we can easily see that rich are getting richer in eve as well, so majority of the growth would be from people who are already high above average. But for the sake of discussion I rounded it up on double amount it was in past. The point still remains, average player will find the price of TSP quite expensive considering what they gain (~week of training)
b) So what you are saying, is that whatever you say I can say its wrong and that`s i? :D Ok, will make the whole discussion quite faster. You are wrong for me, I am wrong for you, end of story. Now on a serious note, if you add something as added benefit which will come with this change and I point out that we already have that available in the game therefore it does not represent any new, added value, how can you not be wrong?
e) Of course it is a risk and a very same reason why no one gives hundreds of millions worth of anything to brand new players. Can`t you see you are wrong again or we have to agree on it? :D
g) I am not sure if you are trolling me or not. Demand is driving the prices up, meaning that with the same cash investment plex sellers will get more isk. They do not even need to supply more and they will still get more isk. Only reason the supply will rise in some amount is when plex goes sky high some more players will buy plexes. But not in the amount to drive the price down. So only one thing is 100% certain, current plexes will go up in the price.
h) But I am not. Nothing is static in player driven game. I was speaking about average player with average sp, I did not make case study for each segment there. Their income is not static, plex prices are not static, TSP price wont be static. If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player.
k) Yes but if you want to do it properly, you need to be sure the chances for that are maximized :)
m) I actually think you lack xp/knowledge with economy and market laws. Especially in the game like this, where market is easy to control and monopolize on
n) But it "solves" it only for young chars since diminishing returns make sure it is not worth doing it later on. If you have 80 mil sp char and want to get to 100mil sp you need to purchase 400 TSPs which will be at least worth 100 PLEX. You can easily purchase much higher sp chars for less investment on char bazaar. If you have 50mil sp char to get to 65mil you can do it cheaper as well (cba to run more calcs, you get the picture). And that is with starting price of TSP, with time it will just go up...

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#6074 - 2015-12-07 21:38:48 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?

That's a hard to swallow justification.


Then let`s listen to Dror and make it Counter Strike Gungame version of Eve? All SP unlocked, unlimited isk. Even without sarcasm, this is direction we are heading....

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6075 - 2015-12-07 21:41:20 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?

That's a hard to swallow justification.

Ive had a few discussions over different aspects but however hard it is to swallow over the money vs time invested quote it becomes reality with the TSP in its current incarnation. However illogical it maybe and in a different league to me you don't know who is behind any pilot and what there finances allow them to do.

If i was in any of those lists and became superseded by cash injected pilot the game would be over.

Time is invested either way, that some people may soon be able to trade theirs doesn't make it any less the investment of time. And the investment of cash can still only buy SP in the form of a sub directly. Otherwise it can only be used to buy someones actually invested in game time (vs just buying the sub and not investing time in gameplay).

So we have some conveniently ignored facts:
1) Cash for SP is the mechanic in play now via subs
2) All this does is allow that SP to be shuffled
3) Access purchased is not time invested
4) PLEX already relocates actual time investment

Combine these and we see that whatever metric you're using to measure Hilmar's words is either flawed or was wrong well before he ever stated it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6076 - 2015-12-07 21:42:31 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?

That's a hard to swallow justification.


Then let`s listen to Dror and make it Counter Strike Gungame version of Eve? All SP unlocked, unlimited isk. Even without sarcasm, this is direction we are heading....
No, it's not. But I guess if you don't have an argument you can always just throw something absurd out to try to deflect.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#6077 - 2015-12-07 22:00:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm aware of what you said, and I find the motivation to be lazy and self serving. If you want to try looking clever by turning those words back again fine. Just be aware that I find your stance ill supported and while I'll point it out on arguments you bring forth I won't seek out ones just as ill constructed to make you feel better.

That said everytime you do bring it up I'll continue confirming your intellectual laziness. I've given you several opportunities to confront me with them. That you won't is pretty telling.


Arguments we are discussing in your list are not even among major concerns I wrote about. You would know if you read them. You have opportunity 24/7 to go and read. That you won`t is pretty telling Blink

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No, on that subject you asserted your observations could effectively classify the player base and further didn't actually establish a clear detriment. Remember, the issue of anecdote was limited to your claim about you observations of player development vs SP, not all of your arguments and opinions.

Also you're very weak on stating these side effects as well, but again we know the reason for that.


In order to know if they are weak, you would have to go and read them firstSmile Empty, shallow classifications wont help.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I am posting for the games sake. I am posting because I believe this to be beneficial, even if I as a player have no use for it. But your selfcentric way of thinking concludes that can't be the case since you're convinced any person doing so would have to come to your same conclusion, or so it would appear.

1) No I didn't. I said my SP only barely allowed the piloting of a drake and NOT a T3, making the offer of one useless to me. I never claimed I was able to be a capable pilot of one or even that I am capable now.
2) You're currently posting and presenting your reasoning. There is more than enough for me to respond to and observe what you're doing. Including the next bit.
3) Fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. You haven't done anything remotely close to properly describing me as a player, so it's no wonder you've done such a poor job of guessing my motivations.


So you are posting because you believe it is beneficial, yet you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority plus you do not even want to read side effects mentioned by others. I totally trust you Lol

I do not think everyone have to come to the same conclusion I had. Even when stated my wots i said numerous times I just need someone to explain me what is wrong there, am I over worried for the game. I wrote my concerns to CCP so they can "comfort" me. To keep me and numerous others as customers. I have no problem at all to accept some points in discussion when point is made. I even agreed to some points you have made to be beneficial (even though they are not beneficial for a major player base).

1. Ok, then i understood it wrong, sorry (yet I do not believe you but nvm)
2. No, I am just countering your list, since I do not find anything beneficial for major player base there and I find huge threats in side effects. Not even sure how did we get to these other quotes since I stopped most of the posting hundreds pages ago. My main reasoning is in 4-5 WOT`s somewhere in this thread. And while you state it as weak, you should be able to challenge it easily. Instead you go in digressions, claiming you are not wrong even when it is obvious you are etc.
3. Yea because you totally could not lie, speaking form alt character. Totally trustworthy approach.We all believe you. Or to say it in your manner "fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. Reason why they support you is that they have same aims in personal gains aimed, trolling or lack of knowledge/understanding". See what I did there?

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6078 - 2015-12-07 22:00:58 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:

a) Quality of your posting is going downhill. No one ever said it is static. Other way we would all be at 0 isk as that is how much we start with. I stated that even though people have skills and knowledge they will not pursue in grinding the isk as much as you expect. If we really go into details we can easily see that rich are getting richer in eve as well, so majority of the growth would be from people who are already high above average. But for the sake of discussion I rounded it up on double amount it was in past. The point still remains, average player will find the price of TSP quite expensive considering what they gain (~week of training)
b) So what you are saying, is that whatever you say I can say its wrong and that`s i? :D Ok, will make the whole discussion quite faster. You are wrong for me, I am wrong for you, end of story. Now on a serious note, if you add something as added benefit which will come with this change and I point out that we already have that available in the game therefore it does not represent any new, added value, how can you not be wrong?
e) Of course it is a risk and a very same reason why no one gives hundreds of millions worth of anything to brand new players. Can`t you see you are wrong again or we have to agree on it? :D
g) I am not sure if you are trolling me or not. Demand is driving the prices up, meaning that with the same cash investment plex sellers will get more isk. They do not even need to supply more and they will still get more isk. Only reason the supply will rise in some amount is when plex goes sky high some more players will buy plexes. But not in the amount to drive the price down. So only one thing is 100% certain, current plexes will go up in the price.
h) But I am not. Nothing is static in player driven game. I was speaking about average player with average sp, I did not make case study for each segment there. Their income is not static, plex prices are not static, TSP price wont be static. If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player.
k) Yes but if you want to do it properly, you need to be sure the chances for that are maximized :)
m) I actually think you lack xp/knowledge with economy and market laws. Especially in the game like this, where market is easy to control and monopolize on
n) But it "solves" it only for young chars since diminishing returns make sure it is not worth doing it later on. If you have 80 mil sp char and want to get to 100mil sp you need to purchase 400 TSPs which will be at least worth 100 PLEX. You can easily purchase much higher sp chars for less investment on char bazaar. If you have 50mil sp char to get to 65mil you can do it cheaper as well (cba to run more calcs, you get the picture). And that is with starting price of TSP, with time it will just go up...

a) No, you just made an argument predicated on it being static. One that states the option to ear more isk isn't valid and used average wallet values, a static metric, as an attempt at proof. It's not that the quality of my posts is going down, it's that your shaky logic is getting easier to quickly address quickly. That and knowing what irrelevant filler to avoid biting.
b) No, I'm saying that you saying you don't feel that way is correct, and that others you know not feeling that way is also correct (assuming you've interpreted that correctly), but also that any subset that doesn't feel that way doesn't invalidate the subset that does. Therefore no single players individual feelings, or even a group of players feelings on the matter makes that point wrong unless that group is every player in the game.
e) Most things worth that much aren't useful to those players, this is a large exception to that rule that mitigates the traditional risks associated with giving high value rewards to new players. Think about how this works mechanically for a moment vs anything else you could give a new player.
g)In game demand drives in game prices, but not out of game demand. Out of game demand depresses prices, and a need for in game isk drives out of game demand. If this is as you say a driver for isk need it will drive out of game purchases and further increase PLEX supply. That depresses in game cost.
h) Average SP is a moving point in a veteran driven game, so the very basis of you argument is a point with an generally upward velocity.
k) I'm not in any particular disagreement with the direction, just that the metric stands even without pushing people to lowsec
m) I think you're just not properly accounting for the reasons for PLEX purchases from CCP.
n) Then is solves it for that segment, which is a gain. How important that is in that period for a player, and thus the long term effects, are highly speculative, but at the least you see there is an effect.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#6079 - 2015-12-07 22:02:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.

I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.

@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion.
So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?

That's a hard to swallow justification.


Then let`s listen to Dror and make it Counter Strike Gungame version of Eve? All SP unlocked, unlimited isk. Even without sarcasm, this is direction we are heading....
No, it's not. But I guess if you don't have an argument you can always just throw something absurd out to try to deflect.


Speaking from experience I`d say Roll

And yes, it is, the journey of thousand miles starts with a step. Well guess what, this is not even first step in this direction.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6080 - 2015-12-07 22:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Berrice Silf wrote:

Your playing it how you want to play it but because you treat it like a second job to fund your gameplay you have little time left for the finer parts of the game and its content.

I treat it like game in which I can get advantege through actually playing. Or it's not? So I could understand why some people screaming
Obsidian Crowe wrote:
Please god no.
You will make EVE play to win

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts