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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5981 - 2015-12-04 18:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

you are commenting from your own ignorant pov
...
I have better knowledge than you
...
You have just shown that you have no idea what I am talking about. And I do not blame you, you have not read my posts and I do not care to rewrite them or even link them. Though I find you ignorant or delusional (if you really think you are successfully discarding them without even knowing what they are about).

Wow, you are so arrogant. "I am not insulting, just stating obvious" © Don ZOLA
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

General Lootit wrote:

A Ingus wrote:

this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about.

So, Iowa Banshee, don't worry about it.

So apparently not that big of an advantage, just one worth screaming over in order to keep.


Understood - Will log in immediately and turn off all training

A Ingus, apparently they don't believe you.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5982 - 2015-12-04 19:26:26 UTC
Rat Scout wrote:
He writes:

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity



And your answer:

Don ZOLA wrote:



b) We already have that, TSP will not affect it



Your answer for a plain and simple claim is completely illogical. This is why you get answers that seem "troll-ish" to you.

In more simpler terms I will translate because the least of goal is to troll you:

With TSP a person is staying on the account, no new character coming in. Therefore if you decided to spam local in Jita with isk doubling offers, your reputation will stay intact and everyone will know that you are a reliable player who loves to help others.

We do not have this feature currently. Right now you can double isk, and when you decide you want to join a mining corp because you are too old to chat all day in local, you sell your character, buy a new one and your revered status is forgotten, unknown to any of your new corpmates.

Do you see now how TSP will support choices&consenquances in greater depth?



Not sure what is unclear there.

Beside logical mistake you have (people scamming have intact reputation wtf?). You can do the same now or in future. You can sell that character in future in the same way you are selling it now. No matter TSP in it or not. Character bazaar is going to remain in future. You keep acting like it wont, but you got it wrong. They are not removing.

Also, you can stay now on account, same as you can stay in the future.
Ie nothing new in that part.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5983 - 2015-12-04 19:27:53 UTC
General Lootit wrote:


Stop taking things out of content you lousy troll.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#5984 - 2015-12-04 19:33:00 UTC
General lootit, You are quite the troll. You took someone's statements and removed there contextual meaning to stir trouble. I hope they see through your BS and remove the posts.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5985 - 2015-12-04 19:38:30 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:

Stop taking things out of content you lousy troll.

Don ZOLA wrote:

That was trolling for troll.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#5986 - 2015-12-04 19:48:10 UTC
General lootit

You took selected sentences then added to the recipient that he was arrogant. To cause trouble - The definition of a Troll

Very nasty trick, if i was ISD i would just delete your whole nonsense.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5987 - 2015-12-04 20:00:50 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

a) TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it
b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity
c) TSP will reduce the amount necessary to partake of SP purchases via buying whole characters making it more accessible
d) TSP will be farmed by those with training idle accounts increasing supply and making the packets approach affordability
e) TSP will be offered as a recruitment bonus to various player orgs
f) TSP will be sold for isk on the market increasing visibility and availability
g) Due to c), d), e) and f), TSP will likely be plentiful and allow greater use of the currently somewhat cost prohibitive character Bazaar method of obtaining SP
h) TSP return scaling will support the creation of new chanracters more than the further development of older characters with
years of training
i) Note that h) does NOT mean that I expect it to not be used by vets for their mains at some level, nor do I think it won't be used for alt creation
j) TSP will generate revenue for CCP via the same of extractors and likely PLEX to afford TSP by those not inclined to try to earn isk for them
k) TSP will generate greater activity on some level by those who are inclined to grind isk for them
l) As a result of k) TSP will allow the skill system to incentivize activity in ways it currently does not
m) As a result of PLEX sales for TSP in game PLEX prices may (this is a really big may, to the point of even going the opposite direction depending on extractor price and the number of PLEX consumers born from this change. It's REALLY iffy.) decrease for the increased supply introduced
n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar
o) TSP automates the rules of the SP transfer process by applying item trade mechanics to them, resulting in less need for human oversight compared to the Bazaar

More as I think of it....


a) Incorrect, TSP will aid in speed training those who desire and can afford it
b) We already have that, TSP will not affect it
c) Ok, makes sense
d) Supply will never be a problem if it is profitable, so it is the same as any other industry we already have
e) I doubt we will see that often, not many corps who focuses on new players can afford it + who is going to trust new players with such investments
f) I do not see how can you put something like this as a benefit, of course it will be sold on market its how CCP planned
g) This is pure speculation as the amount of TSP on market mostly depends on profitability of it
h) In theory only, because not many new players will be ready to make such investments
i) Again, stating default purpose as a benefit?
j) And again...
k) Yes, push more people into grinding, that is a great benefit to the game....[/sarcasm off]
l) True but at which cost, by making MMORPG in multiple single players grinding game? I do not see that as improvement, especially because not having that is one of the things which differentiated even from other mmorpgs
m) This is pure speculation and a very bad one. Plex supply is limited, if demand rises prices can only go up. Plus this whole market will surely be controlled by big market players who will intentionally drive prices up
n) True, but not sure how many people are really affected by buying char with bad reputation. There are plenty of corps/alliances in eve who do not pay attention to forums, politics, scams, etc where you can join without a problem. Plus you can always prove that you bought that char
o) True, still not something crucial

Do you have any real benefit, a game changer for good? Something which will surely help A LOT of player base, not something for 1% of it?

a) Anyone with the knowledge to secure isk from in game, the desire to join a group offering them or to find alternative means of getting isk will be able to participate. That covers pretty much anyone who is not actively seeking to avoid isk in some form or another.
b) What we have now is a Bazaar that pits identity and function against each other. This provides an alternate means to get the latter without parting with the former. Thus it promotes greater association with ones identity.
d) That's what I stated so I'll count that as an agreement.
e) What trust issue exists? Those same players will over time have more capable characters as is and further as the AWOXing crowd has demonstrated that risk is realized as is.
f) Because the increase in availability and visibility on the Bazaar are benefits, regardless of whether stated in the op or not.
g) No, the amount depends on the number of accounts with wasted training potential which have nothing but potential gain from this on top of profitability encouraging others.
h) Considering one of those investments that can be made is learning the game, yeah, we should have that expectation.
i)/j) Yes, again, just because it's stated in the op doesn't make it any less beneficial. That's a non-argument.
k) Ok, so we don't want people in space doing things? Or are we pretending an option becomes a mandate?
l) No, it doesn't make this a grinding game. It gives an optional supplement to normal training. No grind needed because the product isn't needed. Those that desire it will have every means they already engage in to pursue it. Further, the flawed logic here is that every addition to the game that can be traded for isk makes it more of a grinding game by the same reasoning, but no one argues that.
m) There was a pretty big explanation there including defining it as highly speculative. You're just pointing out what I already wrote
n) Considering how many brought it up as a balancing point for the Bazaar being acceptable I would think it significant, but even if not, so long as it happens the point stands.
o) The request wasn't for crucial, just beneficial.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5988 - 2015-12-04 20:17:02 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:

To cause trouble - The definition of a Troll

Quite casual definition of troll.
Berrice Silf wrote:

You took selected sentences then added to the recipient

Question

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#5989 - 2015-12-04 20:24:05 UTC
I will not quote your troll posts in the hope they all get removed General lootit.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5990 - 2015-12-04 20:32:41 UTC
I pay a subscription that allows access to EVE for 30 days, in addition it allows me to train SP on one or more of my characters at a set rate.

The ability for people to buy skill points devalues the worth of my SP in relation to my subscription.
The ability to buy out of poor training decisions removes consequences and devalues those decisions.
The ability to farm SP and sell that training time devalues the actual cost of my subscription.

How much it is worth to me to keep my subscription will depend on how much the above affects me...... and this will be the my last Comment on this subject.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5991 - 2015-12-04 21:13:31 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:

The ability to buy out of poor training decisions removes consequences and devalues those decisions.

Iowa Banshee wrote:
Some people are against re-mapping skill points on a character - I'm not one of them

Some sort of contradiction.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5992 - 2015-12-04 21:40:37 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
It was just explanation why considering side effects matters, not a theme for digression. Ie they should really evaluate all side effects in advance before just making decision as obviously the most of them in last years were wrong and they did not have plan how to handle side effects. Or they simply did not have a proper vision of side effects. Still, something we need to point out to them if they cannot realize it on their own.
And we're still having that discussion, save the fact that a few fundamental questions asked of you aren't answered.

Quote:
I am not having this conversation for CCPs sake either. I`m having it because I would prefer game healthy than dead. It is perfectly fine that you cannot understand how other people perceive it as you are commenting from your own ignorant pov, looking at your own interest. Buying sp is not unique, it will make eve same as any other mmorpg which has similar functions (pay to advance).
I've challenged you several times to explain why this would bring about the detriment you claim or more specifically state the reason why inequalities in SP are only not allowable for reasons other than time. You've done everything but that.

Instead you make assumptions about personal benefit, shift into a character attack that literally does everything but address the questions asked of you, then play it off as someone else' ignorance.

So the questions still stand, but given the assumption of self serving malice evident in your tone here I don't expect it since you're either deflecting at this point, don't have an answer, or consider yourself above justifying your position. Either way, you aren't convincing anyone with such an intellectually lazy stance.

Quote:
No. Training will give you more proficiency than time. Ie someone who knows what he is doing can defeat someone who has more sp in subjected area, be it pvp, trade or whatever. Ie you spending time to get BS 5 does not mean anything if I can kill you with BS 1 simply because I have better knowledge than you.

And it is not called anecdote, it is experience which comes from spending years in the game and meeting numerous people from all segments of the game.
No, it's called anecdote, because it's anecdotal. What you've done is state that you've noticed "x" or seen "y." The thing is you are one player. One player who has met a limited number of players and I'm willing to bet has not in any tangible way tried to link training and experience in any provable fashion. If you had you would have presented it I would think. But you haven't. You made the same mistake that every anecdotal argument makes, that thinking your limited observations are both correct without any means of assuring the data you're getting is accurate or controlled, and further assuming it expands to all players, including the many you've never met.

Personal experience without controls or method is anecdote.

Quote:
You have just shown that you have no idea what I am talking about. And I do not blame you, you have not read my posts and I do not care to rewrite them or even link them. Though I find you ignorant or delusional (if you really think you are successfully discarding them without even knowing what they are about). But still you are doing the discussion in civilized manner and that is what distinguishes you from the most of others "proers" who are in the most cases not more than trolls :) As I mentioned I do not think this or any other discussion is actually worth time as decision makers do not really communicate with us and we can go on for years here. At this point, only time can tell who was right. I really hope it would be you because the game would become better (no matter if I like the change or not, main reason for my posting is sake of game), but based on my knowledge and experience I really doubt it.
I'm sorry, who am I responding to? Is it you? Wouldn't that suggest the the easiest way to get me to respond to a point is to present it rather than deflect to a 300 page thread that I've been active in for a month and a half?

But if you think it not worthwhile, feel free to stop posting. You save both of us time and effort. I won't have to challenge you to defend your position, you won't have to make excuses to not do so. If you truly think the argument without merit, which is an odd thing to state here as you state otherwise earlier in this same post, the obvious thing to do is stop.

I could also do without the character attacks of needing to be "ignorant" or "self-serving," but I'm becoming more certain that you specifically cannot separate disagreement with deep seated flaws and as such will continue despite the irony of accusing others as trolls.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5993 - 2015-12-04 21:52:45 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I pay a subscription that allows access to EVE for 30 days, in addition it allows me to train SP on one or more of my characters at a set rate.

1) The ability for people to buy skill points devalues the worth of my SP in relation to my subscription.
2) The ability to buy out of poor training decisions removes consequences and devalues those decisions.
3) The ability to farm SP and sell that training time devalues the actual cost of my subscription.

How much it is worth to me to keep my subscription will depend on how much the above affects me...... and this will be the my last Comment on this subject.

1) How is your SP devalued when all other SP is generated the same way?
2) Good thing you can't unless under 5m SP, in which case you still can't. The loss incurred with removing and reallocating your SP preserves the value of decision making. The addition of new skills is the creation of new decisions and need be no further penalized.
3) No, it doesn't. You get nothing less than you've always ever gotten.

All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.

Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#5994 - 2015-12-05 00:28:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.

Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less.

Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something?

Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5995 - 2015-12-05 00:48:36 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.

Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less.

Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something?

Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know

I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Alexia Atavuli
Defiant Liberation Corporation
Defiant Collective
#5996 - 2015-12-05 00:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexia Atavuli
Indifferent to the pros and cons from players old and new.

I plan on utilizing the Extractor and Skill Packet to (1) augment the characters I train for the Character Bazaar, (2) Re-task Alt's that have a bit of redundancy between them, and (3), on occasion, get the main toon ready for a mission/fleet she was otherwise not skilled to -- and the mission/fleet doctrine is hard and fast.

I am sure as in all things, there will be crazy (but rare) abuses -- such as the overnight Tengu pilot. The one with lots of skills and no skills at the same time. And like other things before, we will weather them.

Stay well and Fly Safe!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#5997 - 2015-12-05 05:34:07 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.

Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less.

Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something?

Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know

I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic.

It's the magic of defending your entitlements

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5998 - 2015-12-05 17:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Alavaria Fera wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.

Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less.

Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something?

Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know

I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic.

It's the magic of defending your entitlements

Who called to my advocate? Since you are here would be nice if you defend my actual position - right to buy TSP.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#5999 - 2015-12-05 18:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Berrice Silf
General Lootit wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.

Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less.

Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something?

Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know

I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic.

It's the magic of defending your entitlements

Who called to my advocate? Since you are here would be nice if you defend my actual position - right to buy TSP.


That is funny, There is no such item yet as a TSP - Your just inferring your right to pay 2 advance at present Blink
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6000 - 2015-12-05 18:48:35 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:

That is funny, There is no such item yet as a TSP

It was introduced so it might be such thing in the future. Your captain Pirate
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your just inferring you right to pay 2 advance at present

I defending my right to play 2 boosting advance.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts