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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#621 - 2015-11-30 13:27:01 UTC
Alxephon wrote:
How is it even possible to hit the Osprey Navy Issue and still miss the Caracal Navy Issue. It's worse than its T1 counterpart by a mile. The Exequror Navy issue is also still very underwhelming while the ONI and VNI come out leagues beyond other cruisers in their class for solo/small gang and the Augoror Navy Issue is clearly on top in regard to fleets.

I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, but they should all have at least a decent engagement profile.


I am sorry but what? I think you are confusing a logistic boat with an attack boat. The Navy Exequror is a fine ship and can crazy stuff.
If the kids in lowsec weren't so hellbend of fitting all of their ships wrong you may notice that.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#622 - 2015-11-30 15:11:36 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Alxephon wrote:
How is it even possible to hit the Osprey Navy Issue and still miss the Caracal Navy Issue. It's worse than its T1 counterpart by a mile. The Exequror Navy issue is also still very underwhelming while the ONI and VNI come out leagues beyond other cruisers in their class for solo/small gang and the Augoror Navy Issue is clearly on top in regard to fleets.

I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, but they should all have at least a decent engagement profile.


I am sorry but what? I think you are confusing a logistic boat with an attack boat. The Navy Exequror is a fine ship and can crazy stuff.
If the kids in lowsec weren't so hellbend of fitting all of their ships wrong you may notice that.


I agree with both of you. The navy exeq is viable, but is more skill intensive than say an ONI. Cap and fitting are a bit restrictive, but almost all the navy cruisers suffer from this.

That being said, the navy caracal is utterly useless and the navy drake does everything it does, but better.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#623 - 2015-11-30 15:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Samira Kernher wrote:
What can the new punisher do that a slicer doesn't just do better?


Buffer tank 22995 ehp?

Quote:
Slicer's natural navy stats and better fitting let it tank better.


Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources.

Quote:
The chosen changes don't really let it fill any role that is not done better by something else.


Small gang heavy tackle.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#624 - 2015-11-30 21:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Buffer tank 22995 ehp?

...

Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources.


Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice.

But you're right, it is better for sheer buffer heavy tackle, if we completely ignore guns. Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. But that's still a niche use, and not one I see most of my fleets using. I was just hoping for a punisher that could have a bit wider use.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#625 - 2015-11-30 22:58:07 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice.


It has 18.75 more cpu, which may very well only serve to offset the guns.

But the huge 21.25 of additonal pwg, plus the 20% resist bonus, makes its ability to buffer tank far in excess of the slicer.

Quote:
Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose.


I would be interested to see your fit for a 20000 ehp slicer, without implants or links, only squad boost.

As far as I can see, it runs out of powergrid just trying to fit 2 plates and an afterburner.

Punisher attains 22995 ehp with the following:

2x 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
1x 200mm Steel Plates II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
1x J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
4x 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II
3x Small Trimark Armor Pump I

Even though the role requires no guns, it still has a little fitting left over for a respectable 112 dps.

For a total cost of 6 mil.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#626 - 2015-11-30 23:16:00 UTC
fozzie if your not gonna give the amarr a 2nd weapon systemin their frigates, you need to hot fix all the other races to be forced to have only 1 weapon system for all frigates.

minmatar projectiles
caldari missiles
gallente hybrids

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#627 - 2015-12-01 00:14:08 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:

  • For the Punisher, while Amarr don't have a direct missile progression path, there are a lot of T1 ships that use missiles as their secondary weapon - especially the EWAR type Arbitrator, Dragoon, Prophecy, and Armageddon.

  • Gila and Worm nerfs are needed, no question. The change will probably break a lot of PVE setups for the Gila however, especially in W-Space. Will probably have to try on the test server to see how much of a difference it makes.

  • Orthrus nerf is reasonable, and I think incremental is the way to go considering these are Pirate Faction ships.

    • [/list]

    You've got it wrong. The amarr missile boats exist for caldari/minmatar pilots to get into armor fleets.

    Amarr primary weapons are Lasers/drones and a distant third being Missiles.
    Paladin Genghis Khanid
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #628 - 2015-12-01 01:48:44 UTC
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    fozzie if your not gonna give the amarr a 2nd weapon systemin their frigates, you need to hot fix all the other races to be forced to have only 1 weapon system for all frigates.

    minmatar projectiles
    caldari missiles
    gallente hybrids


    No, because Amarr are the "bad guys" and must be mistreated at every step of development. As the so-called good guys the Gallente "Federation" (is it really a federation when former member had to fight a war gain sovereignty) is entitled to the best of everything and will probably get missiles frigs soon enough. It's not enough that they have a better armor tanking bonuses than Amarr while being able to use both shield and armor tank.
    Sven Viko VIkolander
    In space we are briefly free
    #629 - 2015-12-01 03:00:07 UTC
    First and foremost, no svipul nerfs? The base speed on the ship is far too high. Over the past 6 months it has remained the #1 used ship for "pvp" by almost 100% (above the Saber and well above the next T3D by almost 200% most months). Something's seriously wrong in your metrics with respect to how you measure balance if you have not seen the svipul is in a terrible place.

    On to the ship specifics:

    1) The breacher change is nice, but it is already one of the strongest T1 solo boats. And probably my favorite. I'm not sure it really needs the speed, but it won't hurt anything.

    2) The Tristan nerf to the speed is about the only nerf it really needs. The nerf to hull does not affect kiting Tirstans much, because, generally, if you get a kiting Tristian into low hull you've probably already won. But, it won't ruin the ship, anyhow.

    3) The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp and it currently has ample fitting room and tank. There is a current, viable but niche solo fit that involves flying it like a fat slicer. Adding power, cpu, a low slot, a turret, and a cap reduction on the is going to make this fit pretty strong, even with the 5% damage bonus removed. It probably won't be OP or overused, though, but you could just take the simple road and switch the ship to a 3rd mid...

    4) Firetail and hookbill and Nosprey... thank you!! <3 However, rapid lights need a nerf, and the last thing the game really needs is yet another RLML boat with interceptor speeds. Just saying.

    5) Orthrus.... Way to completely miss the point of why this ship is in a terrible place. It can still remove most t1 crusiers off the field before reload (again, a problem with RLML in general), in addition to being nearly as strong as some comparable AT ships in speed and tank, in addition to having a broken point/scram range. My solution would be to remove the bonus to scram distance, just keeping the bonus to point distance. This will let it remain a strong kiting ship while also making it actually somewhat engageable.
    Paladin Genghis Khanid
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #630 - 2015-12-01 06:59:48 UTC
    Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
    The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp


    Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?
    Ashlar Vellum
    Esquire Armaments
    #631 - 2015-12-01 10:26:31 UTC
    Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
    Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
    The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp


    Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?

    Why every ship should be "viable" for solo pvp? (and it is viable btw you just have to be extra picky about what you engage.)
    Paladin Genghis Khanid
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #632 - 2015-12-02 07:29:31 UTC
    Ashlar Vellum wrote:
    Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
    Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
    The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp


    Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?

    Why every ship should be "viable" for solo pvp? (and it is viable btw you just have to be extra picky about what you engage.)


    You enter a discussion knowing full well how completely on the wrong side you are when you have to answer a question with a question.

    Question: Why not?

    Answer: ALL the other ones are. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM.


    Unless, of course, I'm wrong and they all aren't. Am I wrong?


    So back to my question: What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #633 - 2015-12-02 08:05:31 UTC
    Samira Kernher wrote:
    Shalashaska Adam wrote:
    Buffer tank 22995 ehp?

    ...

    Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources.


    Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice.

    But you're right, it is better for sheer buffer heavy tackle, if we completely ignore guns. Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. But that's still a niche use, and not one I see most of my fleets using. I was just hoping for a punisher that could have a bit wider use.


    Yep and blobbs is the only thing you can ever think of is happening all the time in New Eden.


    Oh my what some people call pvp which isn't even related in the slightiest...

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Patrick Nolen
    KARNAGE
    Caldari Tactical Operations Command
    #634 - 2015-12-02 14:24:59 UTC
    U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game.
    Mad Abbat
    Talon Swarm
    #635 - 2015-12-02 16:30:44 UTC
    Patrick Nolen wrote:
    U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game.


    because cruiser should NOT do 800+ dmg on to target that is 50+km and have BC level tank.
    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #636 - 2015-12-02 19:00:42 UTC
    Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
    Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
    The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp


    Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?

    Griffin
    Vailen Sere
    Infinite Point
    Pandemic Horde
    #637 - 2015-12-02 19:07:28 UTC
    elitatwo wrote:
    Samira Kernher wrote:
    Shalashaska Adam wrote:
    Buffer tank 22995 ehp?

    ...

    Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources.


    Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice.

    But you're right, it is better for sheer buffer heavy tackle, if we completely ignore guns. Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. But that's still a niche use, and not one I see most of my fleets using. I was just hoping for a punisher that could have a bit wider use.


    Yep and blobbs is the only thing you can ever think of is happening all the time in New Eden.


    Oh my what some people call pvp which isn't even related in the slightiest...

    Lol! Probably the same people who are afraid of low sec because there's a gate camp at every gate (sarcasm). And they obviously do it in Blob formation to tank the gate guns.
    Ashlar Vellum
    Esquire Armaments
    #638 - 2015-12-02 20:06:13 UTC
    Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
    Ashlar Vellum wrote:
    Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
    Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
    The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp


    Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?

    Why every ship should be "viable" for solo pvp? (and it is viable btw you just have to be extra picky about what you engage.)


    You enter a discussion knowing full well how completely on the wrong side you are when you have to answer a question with a question.

    Question: Why not?

    Answer: ALL the other ones are. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM.


    Unless, of course, I'm wrong and they all aren't. Am I wrong?


    So back to my question: What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?

    Ok - vigil, griffin, bantam, navitas, burst, inquisitor. (all fit your criterion - all t1, all frigs)

    You can say that last 4 are all logi frigs and they are all balanced in their own group and I would agree with you there, but they still fitted your standard tho. Now we are left with vigil, griffin that can not solo in comparison with cruci, maulus that definitely can. So why are we not talking about how vigil and griffin can't solo?

    If a ship has a role even if it's a niche role as a punisher (cheap, heavy frig tackle) why should it be balanced around "can it solo or not". So my question wasn't trolling I just found notion of balancing things only on merit "can it solo or not" flawed, that's basically why I asked.
    Stitch Kaneland
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #639 - 2015-12-02 22:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
    Anything can solo if youre creative enough, and know how to pick targets. 10mn punisher allows range control w/o a web for one. Mwd+scram fit with nano+AAR would allow it to slingshot tristans very easily. Especially since the punisher will be faster than the tristan after these changes.

    Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

    Make the Muninn great again!
    Shalashaska Adam
    Snakes and Lasers
    #640 - 2015-12-03 03:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
    Punisher is viable for solo, as is any ship that has weapons, simple as that really.

    No you don't have a web, so you have to catch things that can't escape from an afterburner/scram combo.

    If the lack of a web automatically made it unusable, then so would be every frig fit that puts the midslot to other uses.

    Yes you have to be selective, and yes you have try and catch targets by warping on them, as your slow on grid.

    But if the scram hits, good luck getting through your tank, you don't need mega dps when you have that much ehp.