EVE General Discussion

I do.

Carebears always project.

In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone.

I don't think it's entirely about 'forcing them into places where I can kill them'. It's that for a lot of people who live in null, where logistics is a bit of a pain in the ass, and you are risking your assets a lot more whenever you're out it space, it feels wrong that not only is it less risk, but it also makes more isk to go to High Sec and run incursions.

I know this doesn't make sense to people who live in high sec. To them it just looks like nullbears hate high sec or something. But to nullbears the promise of null was that you need to put in effort to survive, but if you do there will be awesome rewards. Then we got out to null, found the rewards were ok, but that they were better back in high sec. So now a fairly significant number of nullbears make their isk in high sec running incursions and only really 'live' in null to go on fleets etc.

That's because null is terribly designed. The reason people prefer making ISK in high sec vs. null is because null sucks. That's more effort and stress than is necessary to get the job done. That just means null needs a buff. Removing incursions will not make null more desirable. High sec people will just do something other than incursions in high sec. Null sec will still suck and people will still avoid it. You won't be solving any problems because you haven't identified the real issues. You're just raging at things you don't like because other people's lives aren't as hard as yours. Well, they shouldn't have to be. CCP's failure to make null desirable has no relation to people who make safe ISK in high sec. Why people always look to high sec whenever null is stagnant and lame beyond me. Most of us live in both high sec and nullsec anyways.

Interesting way to look at it. What part of null do you think is terribly designed? Is it the bit that makes it unsafe? Logistically difficult? Choke points in and out? Local chat showing who's in system? Bubbles? Bombs? Cynos? To many people these are all quite interesting and what makes eve a very different game. If you could help identify what it is you don't like we could possibly look at making null better designed.

From my point of view there are very few games where people can actually run logistics as a gameplay style (I'm talking about hauling and stocking markets, not repairing people in combat). There are many people that like the idea of living in some kind of 'wild west' where they have to fight for and defend what they've laid claim to. Some people like being part of big groups who don't like outsiders, some fight to control areas and make the place open for anyone who doesn't have a bad history with them as an enemy (PFR). Null opens these options up in some pretty interesting ways. But when it comes down to it generally in a game it has to feel worth it. There has to be some satisfaction from putting in the hard yards and getting a 'just' reward.

The problem is that in eve rewards are all relative. Your isk/effort matters in comparison to other ways to get isk/effort. Incursions seem to have high isk and low effort, so relatively a lot of activities in null feel unrewarding because the effort is much higher and the isk isn't as good. Now obviously isk isn't the only reward. Empire building can be it's own reward. Satisfaction at achieving a goal can be a great reward. But for this topic I think we're mainly talking about isk (although I think incursions could do with something to make them feel more rewarding that isn't isk, like challenge).

So anyway, we could buff null isk. Really to do that we'd have to buff all activities in null, ratting, manufacturing, maybe PI and moon goo, just generally stuff to 'fix' null. Then we might need to go buff LS to keep it somewhere in the middle. And maybe WHs.

Look at the end of the day I don't want to remove incursions. I think they have a place. I just don't think they should eclipse so many other forms of making isk as much as they currently do.

No you do not see. You are confusing "the economy" with "personal economic incentives". The economy is mostly fine even with so few people generating 8 tril isk per month from incursions. The real problem is that the existence of high sec incursions and a couple of other things reduce incentives of people who live outside of high sec to do things in their own space. Many of those running high sec incursions are actually alts of null and low sec players.

High Sec shouldn't be so attractive that people like me plant permanent alts there for the purpose of making more isk than we could in space we fight for and upgrade.

This leads to people who are trying to maintain their unbalanced high sec isk fountain to then say" well, just buff null", but buffing null would hurt the game and just funnel isk into the hands of a few null sec overlords ( ironically recreating the problem high sec incursions already produce, and that people like me are calling for to end).

While this kind of non-thinking BS doesn't deserve a response, I will point out that this is what you commonly get form any kind of discussion that people think will result in them losing something. It's sad to observe, because you see their fear overcome their reason.

The issue being discussed, which is going over your head , causing your anger.



What carriers? I use a Machariel. But I don't know what you mean about resist the urge to come back to high sec. I NEVER LEFT lol, it's called an alt. I log it on whenever I need isk faster than my deadspace null mach can make. And every time, it strikes me as wrong that that's an option. The feeling intensifies while on TVP or WTM comms talking to people who willingly tell you their mains ar ein PL, NC., TEST, Goons etc etc. So I'm not the only one from null drawn to the damn things.

Go ahead, lie to yourself if it makes you feel better. Pretend that the entire reason I'm posting is that I care about the imaginary money finding it's way into the imaginary wallet of some dude sitting at a computer, probably naked and covered in cheeto dust. If denying the issue helps you, more power to you.

As for other people's opinions, I respect other people's opinions, when they are right and backed up by evidence. When they are a bunch of nonsense and self serving untruths, I also give them the respect they deserve.

None.

Can we get the discussion back on track, stop the mud flinging, and get into this evidence and counter arguments that the "keep things as they are" crowd keep saying they've posted? I'd be interested to see the argument for why incursions are fine as they are preferably from someone who has experience both in incursions and in other areas of space. I have used examples from my own experience showing how incursions remove content but have not seen arguments against that.

Could you guys please stop for a moment and state, how much ISK/h/Character can be made with certain activities?

From my experience, Nullsec Anomalies cap out somewhere around 120M or so, but I may be doing it wrong. How much is it for 0.0 DED Sites, Incursions? W-Space? FW? Lv 4 Missions?

Your trolling is soo weird, but at least it's original.