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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Author
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5861 - 2015-11-24 09:52:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
I don't think your understanding what some are trying to say either, I have a character i could quite easily remove 26 or so million sp's from. Of those 26m i would like to reassign 7m into something else on the same character but can't because on removing them to me they only become 50k packets. I don't need isk i don't need to strip any toon down for money, so if i can't reallocate my 7 million i sure as hell ain't gonna part with all the rest to give someone else the benefit of them - Your on about bitter vet's all the time but screwing them over for a sub 50m player sure ain't going to help this. This Personalization is flawed to anyone above 50m skill points, like i've said before once you turn the backbone of the game into a pay2 access system where is there any prestige and uniqueness ??

EDIT
Say they had 2 models of extractors 1 the standard tradeable TSP with it's depreciation scale, then one that was purely for use on the character that it pulled the skill points from with zero loss. A skill realignment model - your still paying extra in some way to do it but without feeling CCP have kicked you in the nuts for being so loyal.
We've had this conversation. There is no gap in understanding, there or here. Just the disagreement regarding whether the use of extractors/TSP for remapping purposes should incur loss or not. I still hold to what I stated prior, that I should not be able to losslessly remove any training "mistakes" to put me even with those that more effectively used their training time.

The "screwing the vets" argument doesn't fly with me as one of those vets. Being paid for doesn't bypass the principle of 1st time training choices sticking or having some level of consequence. Even if TSP allows one to speed up other trains, it doesn't bypass what you already have and the consequence of having it.

You can't have it both way's Ty there either is or isn't consequences and by virtue of being able to create "the perfect" character from scratch there won't be a consequence. Anyone under 50 mill can extract all there mistakes and reallocate there skills with a minimum loss - Thats a 2.5 years old character. So us that have been playing 10 years plus your saying it's hard luck then ?

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5862 - 2015-11-24 10:14:57 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
You can't have it both way's Ty there either is or isn't consequences and by virtue of being able to create "the perfect" character from scratch there won't be a consequence. Anyone under 50 mill can extract all there mistakes and reallocate there skills with a minimum loss - Thats a 2.5 years old character. So us that have been playing 10 years plus your saying it's hard luck then ?
There is no both ways. There is only one way. You have a certain amount of SP and get a return from a TSP accordingly. That's not 2 ways, that's exactly one way. If you want to disassemble your > 50mill SP char to assemble a perfect 50mill char that option is open. The 10 years vets can easily take advantage of that.

If you want proof of tenure as if that was some kind of qualifier, look at my employment history. I'm well over the 2.5 years that it would take to get past 50m SP. If you want more than that, you'll have to do without.

Simple as before, respecs of SP shouldn't be free, and the more you have to move the more of an issue it becomes, thus the scaling being positive. If it really bothers you you can create a new character with better returns and more focus.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5863 - 2015-11-24 10:53:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
You can't have it both way's Ty there either is or isn't consequences and by virtue of being able to create "the perfect" character from scratch there won't be a consequence. Anyone under 50 mill can extract all there mistakes and reallocate there skills with a minimum loss - Thats a 2.5 years old character. So us that have been playing 10 years plus your saying it's hard luck then ?
There is no both ways. There is only one way. You have a certain amount of SP and get a return from a TSP accordingly. That's not 2 ways, that's exactly one way. If you want to disassemble your > 50mill SP char to assemble a perfect 50mill char that option is open. The 10 years vets can easily take advantage of that.

If you want proof of tenure as if that was some kind of qualifier, look at my employment history. I'm well over the 2.5 years that it would take to get past 50m SP. If you want more than that, you'll have to do without.

Simple as before, respecs of SP shouldn't be free, and the more you have to move the more of an issue it becomes, thus the scaling being positive. If it really bothers you you can create a new character with better returns and more focus.

Your very narrow minded on this. I'm not on about dismantling one character to build a new one i'm on about creating a toon from bought TSP's from the market ( Sub 50 mill ) wont be that expensive to a lot of people.
Same with the existing sub 50 mill players can remove ( extract ) there mistakes, reallocate them into what they want with minimal loss. They have zero to minimal consequences, anyone above 80 mill CCP have basically said screw you. None of the above benefits a completely new player to the game paying just a sub, unless he's willing to start forking out even more $$$ to keep up.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5864 - 2015-11-24 11:39:41 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Your very narrow minded on this. I'm not on about dismantling one character to build a new one i'm on about creating a toon from bought TSP's from the market ( Sub 50 mill ) wont be that expensive to a lot of people.
Same with the existing sub 50 mill players can remove ( extract ) there mistakes, reallocate them into what they want with minimal loss. They have zero to minimal consequences, anyone above 80 mill CCP have basically said screw you. None of the above benefits a completely new player to the game paying just a sub, unless he's willing to start forking out even more $$$ to keep up.
The only ones to have 0 consequence are those that can't use the feature to respec SP, sub 5mill characters. Those 5-50mill suffer 20% loss, while having between 6% to 60% of the toal SP to play with that someone who just entered the 80mill + bracket. The only issue I see with that it that the scaling isn't aggressive enough.

50mill SP is to high to still be getting 80% returns. At that point you have more than enough SP for the concepts of training decisions to have serious meaning, and thus loss when reallocated. There is no issue with 80mill+ players having to decide between big loss or their prior training decisions. The issue is that 50mill SP players largely don't to a disproportionate level as proposed.

There is no screw you to the players that have the flexibility of high SP characters. The entire system benefits them all the time. The ability to respec large amounts of SP just makes that advantage frivolous to devalue since any specialty is just a respec away. At least diminishing value keeps further specs an increasing value away. And that's what's needed with CCP's numbers.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5865 - 2015-11-24 12:41:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Your very narrow minded on this. I'm not on about dismantling one character to build a new one i'm on about creating a toon from bought TSP's from the market ( Sub 50 mill ) wont be that expensive to a lot of people.
Same with the existing sub 50 mill players can remove ( extract ) there mistakes, reallocate them into what they want with minimal loss. They have zero to minimal consequences, anyone above 80 mill CCP have basically said screw you. None of the above benefits a completely new player to the game paying just a sub, unless he's willing to start forking out even more $$$ to keep up.
The only ones to have 0 consequence are those that can't use the feature to respec SP, sub 5mill characters. Those 5-50mill suffer 20% loss, while having between 6% to 60% of the toal SP to play with that someone who just entered the 80mill + bracket. The only issue I see with that it that the scaling isn't aggressive enough.

50mill SP is to high to still be getting 80% returns. At that point you have more than enough SP for the concepts of training decisions to have serious meaning, and thus loss when reallocated. There is no issue with 80mill+ players having to decide between big loss or their prior training decisions. The issue is that 50mill SP players largely don't to a disproportionate level as proposed.

There is no screw you to the players that have the flexibility of high SP characters. The entire system benefits them all the time. The ability to respec large amounts of SP just makes that advantage frivolous to devalue since any specialty is just a respec away. At least diminishing value keeps further specs an increasing value away. And that's what's needed with CCP's numbers.

So after the lengthy explanation, sub 50 mill have got basically a reskill facility with minimal loss and the vets get a big screw you !!
Anyway you paint it this whole feature is aimed at the 5-50 group to which i said its totally flawed. They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ??

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5866 - 2015-11-24 20:05:50 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
So after the lengthy explanation, sub 50 mill have got basically a reskill facility with minimal loss and the vets get a big screw you !!
Anyway you paint it this whole feature is aimed at the 5-50 group to which i said its totally flawed. They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ??
Are you suggesting that this feature, pushed as helping new players, actually targets its benefit towards them and calling that a problem?

Are you further saying that as a vet everything has to benefit you proportionally to your tenure?

These seem to be the core of your opposition. If you can't use it on your 80mill + SP character it's a "screw you", even knowing that yes, the feature is aimed at < 50mill players to preserve the rarity of high SP characters.

As someone well past 80mill I don't see why 5 years of skill decision making should be easily and costlessly undone. You still haven't justified that aside from suggesting you deserve it because you've played the game for a while.

And no, I don't think those of us will be supplying new players from our mains save those with a few skills we really regret training. Personally I'm happy with what's in my characters and as such won't be using this as a seller, buyer or respec'er. The former I won't do because I see no need, the latter 2 I won't do because the returns are abysmal as they should be. That return means my decisions past and present still have value.

Also, no, I didn't say 50mill should have "free respecs" I clearly stated that 50mill was too high for 80% respecs per CCPs plan. At that mark 50% return, maybe lower, should be in effect. The only characters that should be able to do efficient transfers are those with nothing really to move.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5867 - 2015-11-24 21:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
So after the lengthy explanation, sub 50 mill have got basically a reskill facility with minimal loss and the vets get a big screw you !!
Anyway you paint it this whole feature is aimed at the 5-50 group to which i said its totally flawed. They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ??
Are you suggesting that this feature, pushed as helping new players, actually targets its benefit towards them and calling that a problem?

Are you further saying that as a vet everything has to benefit you proportionally to your tenure?

These seem to be the core of your opposition. If you can't use it on your 80mill + SP character it's a "screw you", even knowing that yes, the feature is aimed at < 50mill players to preserve the rarity of high SP characters.

As someone well past 80mill I don't see why 5 years of skill decision making should be easily and costlessly undone. You still haven't justified that aside from suggesting you deserve it because you've played the game for a while.

And no, I don't think those of us will be supplying new players from our mains save those with a few skills we really regret training. Personally I'm happy with what's in my characters and as such won't be using this as a seller, buyer or respec'er. The former I won't do because I see no need, the latter 2 I won't do because the returns are abysmal as they should be. That return means my decisions past and present still have value.

Also, no, I didn't say 50mill should have "free respecs" I clearly stated that 50mill was too high for 80% respecs per CCPs plan. At that mark 50% return, maybe lower, should be in effect. The only characters that should be able to do efficient transfers are those with nothing really to move.

I was being sarcastic there is sweet FA that helps new players, even ones that make errors at the beginning still can't alter anything until theyre 5m plus. The whole thing is based on " Personalization " what im saying is why can't vets have any personalization, the only thing vets are seen as in this whole ******* mess are skill sacks to be dissected and sold on. Surely if something is implemented like this is should benefit everyone in game. That rarity and prestige is the biggest load of bollox i've seen in a long time, theyre selling skillpoints be it extracted or bazaar anyone can now buy there way into the game rarity is null and void.
EDIT
Prestige is now, You can't anyway at all buy one of those top skill players, they are elite 1 to 50 there is no way to surpass them.

When TSP's hit regardless of how much money it would cost if someone wanted to get there it becomes possible. End of an era as regards to the elite, zero prestige thats taken 12 years to achieve. just another run of the mill MMO that has pay to progress or what ever you want to call it.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Alavaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5868 - 2015-11-24 21:21:58 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ??

That might be a useful thing to have around.

Loyalty is a virtue, participation brings reward.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5869 - 2015-11-24 21:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Levi Belvar wrote:
I was being sarcastic there is sweet FA that helps new players, even ones that make errors at the beginning still can't alter anything until theyre 5m plus. The whole thing is based on " Personalization " what im saying is why can't vets have any personalization, the only thing vets are seen as in this whole ******* mess are skill sacks to be dissected and sold on. Surely if something is implemented like this is should benefit everyone in game. That rarity and prestige is the biggest load of bollox i've seen in a long time, theyre selling skillpoints be it extracted or bazaar anyone can now buy there way into the game rarity is null and void.
There is nothing "bollox" about the advantage and utility of having more than one 100mill + SP characters, especially with supporting skill sets. That's what vets are seen as. Capable characters with years of decisions behind that capability.

I think that's where we're conflicting; you're seeing the SP fueling the packets coming from us vet characters where I'm seeing it coming mostly from characters which would otherwise be sold or from potentially SP farmers on accounts with little training need. I expect the system should and will disincentivize using older characters with any part of this system as proposed.

If anything, there may be a one time shedding of unused or unnecessary skills where they are no longer needed (BS V cap pilots, barge trained orca pilots and such.) and that will likely fuel the initial seed of the TSPs. But past that, unless those vets decide to keep training skills they don't want, that's a one time thing.

Regarding Personalization: That's what you've been doing for years. Every training decision is personalization. This idea isn't the origin of character personalization, rather it's an alternative to having time be the only means of creating that personalization. The flaws in your training are equally part of that series of personalizations, and should have a cost to undo. And currently with no method of recourse or recovery. Personalization != 0 consequence training decisions.

Regarding Benefit: And with no current means of recovery, even 10% is a benefit over the current not at all system. So yes, even vets benefit. Even vets can remove unwanted skills. They simply have a harder decision about what to do with the SP once removed, but it caps abuses created by being able to efficiently move hundreds of millions of SP on a whim.

Regarding Rarity: High SP characters are now as rare as players chose to make them. Bazaar characters are not sold by CCP, but by players with CCP taking a transfer fee. If the proposed goes into effect the same will occur but more granularly. Then the limit will be the result of what you have the ability to purchase from the available supply. And at a point, since the scale works on SP and not age, any attempts to encroach on the high SP realm run into the same issues of efficiency that those already there face, and we have a head start.

If the system really does allow for the building of 50mill alts effortlessly but becomes as onerous as you suggest at 80m SP+, us >100mill SP players are indeed going to be rare and prestigious. If we're not, then the scaling isn't as much of a deterrent as you claim.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5870 - 2015-11-24 22:18:00 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I think that's where we're conflicting; you're seeing the SP fueling the packets coming from us vet characters where I'm seeing it coming mostly from characters which would otherwise be sold or from potentially SP farmers on accounts with little training need. I expect the system should and will disincentivize using older characters with any part of this system as proposed.

A few pages back you thought it highly amusing over the SP farm part now your adding it back in ???

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Regarding Rarity: High SP characters are now as rare as players chose to make them. Bazaar characters are not sold by CCP, but by players with CCP taking a transfer fee. If the proposed goes into effect the same will occur but more granularly. Then the limit will be the result of what you have the ability to purchase from the available supply. And at a point, since the scale works on SP and not age, any attempts to encroach on the high SP realm run into the same issues of efficiency that those already there face, and we have a head start.

CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. CCP allows you to move there property from account A to account B for a fee. You have your time investment but there is no such thing as a head start when you will be able to buy chunks of time and insert it at will.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5871 - 2015-11-24 22:36:37 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
A few pages back you thought it highly amusing over the SP farm part now your adding it back in ???
Context is important. Then it was the specific situation of farming SP for combining rather than sale. The former is an up to 90% loss proposition, which for most I imagine is a non-starter. The latter on the other hand suffers no loss since extraction and sale aren't scaled.

So yes, farming for the purpose of consolidation is an amusingly bad proposition, farming for sale on the other hand is not.

Levi Belvar wrote:
CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. CCP allows you to move there property from account A to account B for a fee.
CCP owning everything doesn't invalidate that they have left the creation of characters to the players paying for that access, thus making those players and their choices the sole source of SP in the game, including characters available for trade. Yes they own them, but that holds no relevance for this discussion since they have left the players with the exclusive capacity to trade them between accounts within the rules they set.

Levi Belvar wrote:
You have your time investment but there is no such thing as a head start when you will be able to buy chunks of time and insert it at will.
There very much is a head start, and that head start is currently only time, but could be also investment. I'll have to spend nothing from the moment if/when this goes in to have a 150mill SP character. Someone else could buy their way to it, but at significant expense I won't have to incur due to already having invested time.

Thus I have a head start, just not one that translates into a permanent, unencroachable lead.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5872 - 2015-11-25 08:32:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
A few pages back you thought it highly amusing over the SP farm part now your adding it back in ???
Context is important. Then it was the specific situation of farming SP for combining rather than sale. The former is an up to 90% loss proposition, which for most I imagine is a non-starter. The latter on the other hand suffers no loss since extraction and sale aren't scaled.

So yes, farming for the purpose of consolidation is an amusingly bad proposition, farming for sale on the other hand is not.

Levi Belvar wrote:
CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. CCP allows you to move there property from account A to account B for a fee.
CCP owning everything doesn't invalidate that they have left the creation of characters to the players paying for that access, thus making those players and their choices the sole source of SP in the game, including characters available for trade. Yes they own them, but that holds no relevance for this discussion since they have left the players with the exclusive capacity to trade them between accounts within the rules they set.

Levi Belvar wrote:
You have your time investment but there is no such thing as a head start when you will be able to buy chunks of time and insert it at will.
There very much is a head start, and that head start is currently only time, but could be also investment. I'll have to spend nothing from the moment if/when this goes in to have a 150mill SP character. Someone else could buy their way to it, but at significant expense I won't have to incur due to already having invested time.

Thus I have a head start, just not one that translates into a permanent, unencroachable lead.

So everything i was saying the other day, you can now twist to your way of thinking because it suites your purpose.There are some here who think that the TSP will be a very cheap option to use, one even stating that he would of virtually given them away. So looking at it this way your time investment could be caught up with very cheaply compared to year on year subbing. Your fine with the fact that someone can buy their way into a game rather than earn it.

EvE was unique the only thing you needed to bring to the game was time, It doesn't matter how you perceived it. With this it's gone. They're not doing anything to help the new player except part with more cash, We've already concluded skill point's don't equal experience. How is this going to benefit anything long term to draw in new blood and stay.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5873 - 2015-11-25 10:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Levi Belvar wrote:
[So everything i was saying the other day, you can now twist to your way of thinking because it suites your purpose.There are some here who think that the TSP will be a very cheap option to use, one even stating that he would of virtually given them away. So looking at it this way your time investment could be caught up with very cheaply compared to year on year subbing. Your fine with the fact that someone can buy their way into a game rather than earn it.

EvE was unique the only thing you needed to bring to the game was time, It doesn't matter how you perceived it. With this it's gone. They're not doing anything to help the new player except part with more cash, We've already concluded skill point's don't equal experience. How is this going to benefit anything long term to draw in new blood and stay.
Um. no, you're the one trying to twist things. You tried to twist my statements about people consolidating SP to be about collecting for sale purposes. There was no change for my part, just you trying to tell me an apple is an orange.

Regarding the price of TSP, one of a few things can happen, either they end up being expensive, and people will have to go through considerable expense, or they end up being trivial and I may partake myself, maintaining my lead. Or I'll more likely not care either way since Eve is a low maintenance game for me, and that won't change since I'm not in an SP contest with anyone.

But we really don't know where that price will end up, and speculation is a poor basis for any sort of argument. In fact, on the subject of twisting position you've been doing exactly that. When you argue against it being new player friendly it's expensive, rare and easily manipulated by cartels with limited supply. But when it comes to this argument it's suddenly worth considering it cheap and plentiful.

As to you're last question, why wouldn't it? The benefits have been presented, allowing progress for effort, and creating engagement in actively progressing a character and allowing a workaround to a flexible character without losing the identity you created. Why wouldn't these have a long term affect for those inclined to participate?

Or are you switching back to the "it's expensive and new players can only participate with real money" argument in the same post you suggest it could reasonably be frivolous? I'm left to guess that's the case considering your remark about parting with cash.

Lastly, no, Eve was never just a function of time. It is a function of skill, knowledge, friends and will. Soon those aspects may have further relevance to the advancement of characters. A scary thought in a game of tenure base SP ranking I know, but I think we can manage.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#5874 - 2015-11-25 14:52:00 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Lastly, no, Eve was never just a function of time. It is a function of skill, knowledge, friends and will. Soon those aspects may have further relevance to the advancement of characters. A scary thought in a game of tenure base SP ranking I know, but I think we can manage.

Yep. This is some "make a trailer about not being able to turn back" and "the empires old guard are losing their grip on power SP gaining"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Doddy
Excidium.
#5875 - 2015-11-25 19:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Levi Belvar wrote:

CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. .


This is nonsense, and a fallacy you repeat constantly. Your time investment has no bearing on skill training. Only the number of subs you have paid. Somebody could have spent 10 hours total in game since 2003 and have a 250 mil character while somebody else spent 10 hours a day fo rthe last year only has 20mil. There is no time investment in eves skill system beyond however long you take to physically set a skill training.

There is time investment only in the collection of in game items and isk. This has been depreciated by rl money for years through plex, yet i don't see your "down with the plex" threads. instead you are on here bashing something which has no impact on invested time whatsoever.

Basically you are crying that you have spent your money, you don't want anyone else to. Its kind of sad. At least other peoples arguments relate to the health of the game or misuse, yours are based on selfishness.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5876 - 2015-11-25 20:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Doddy wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. .


This is nonsense, and a fallacy you repeat constantly. Your time investment has no bearing on skill training. Only the number of subs you have paid. Somebody could have spent 10 hours total in game since 2003 and have a 250 mil character while somebody else spent 10 hours a day fo rthe last year only has 20mil. There is no time investment in eves skill system beyond however long you take to physically set a skill training.

There is time investment only in the collection of in game items and isk. This has been depreciated by rl money for years through plex, yet i don't see your "down with the plex" threads. instead you are on here bashing something which has no impact on invested time whatsoever.

Basically you are crying that you have spent your money, you don't want anyone else to. Its kind of sad. At least other peoples arguments relate to the health of the game or misuse, yours are based on selfishness.


Did i say playtime, No i said time investment learn to read you clown, CCP state that they own everything which is why we cannot sell accounts privately. All your left with is a time investment. This is now being overwritten by being able to buy time chunks to which CCP Hellmar stated:

We also didn’t do enough to assure you that this wasn’t the beginning of a “pay to win” scenario in EVE. Our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer:

The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.

Is there something in that statement that even a simpleton cannot understand !!!!

EDIT

I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment. - it has no bearing on if i want to play or not or how many skill points i earn each month, Thats the benefit of having this kind of skill system over a by level design. What i want is a way for people to actually stay from trial not leave. Even if it means speeding things up, doing something with attribs or implants. Buying your way in just attracts short term players which this game doesn't cater too.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5877 - 2015-11-25 21:14:42 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. .


Snip

Basically you are crying that you have spent your money, you don't want anyone else to. Its kind of sad. At least other peoples arguments relate to the health of the game or misuse, yours are based on selfishness.



Talking about the health of the game: TSP use an outside-game item and that affects the PLEX market.


(1) Do you think it will be profitable to farm SP for ISK 5%-10% ROI (Plex bought) or 20-%25% ROI on a main training SP for ISK

(2) Do you think CCP will open the ISK faucets a little to keep PLEX inflation about the same level it is now as opposed to allowing the price of PLEX to inflate (It's 6Bill/Plex on China server) making it much harder to PLEX an account.


YES to both these questions will defiantly change the way I play the game.
Veraca Darmazaf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5878 - 2015-11-25 21:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Veraca Darmazaf
Levi Belvar wrote:

I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.


I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point.
You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours.

In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else.

Edit: I can't say I've invested $10,000 in a car if I get the car without giving up the $10,000. Likewise I can't say I've invested 30 days gaining SP if I still had those 30 days to spend as I wanted while I gained that SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5879 - 2015-11-25 21:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.


I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point.
You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours.

In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else.

Edit: I can't say I've invested $10,000 in a car if I get the car without giving up the $10,000. Likewise I can't say I've invested 30 days gaining SP if I still had those 30 days to spend as I wanted while I gained that SP.

That by far is the biggest load of tripe i've seen on here, im still wondering WTF most of it is supposed to even mean. My definition of Time investment is fine, i think even stephen hawkings would be baffled by that load of shite you just typed.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5880 - 2015-11-25 21:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.


I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point.
You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours.

In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else.
What he is describing is simply monetary investment. It's a subscription for access and the privileges thereof. The issue is that since the sub buys time to potentially play the game, he and others are conflating buying time with investing time.

That's why they keep using that quote. They refuse to distinguish between paying for a sub and investing time in the game. SP is currently (mostly, there are some active aspects) just a monetary function over uninvested time . Making it something you can purchase in game on the other hand actually encourages investing time in game rather than just a sub price.