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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1301 - 2015-11-23 20:46:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
People react as if they were losing real money. I think it would make a hell of a psych study lol.


If I were a social scientist it'd be like Christmas come early reading over these forums.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1302 - 2015-11-23 20:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Acktose5123 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Acktose5123 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion

I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more).


I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol.

I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all.

As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil.

Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom.


And this matters to one's wallet how? I'm not in an incursion fleet now but i bet there's one running. They are going to be there no matter what, it's not like you have to recruit a fleet yourself.

Incursion runners hide behind "you need a fleet" because iot's the only thin thread keeping them from the pain of having to admit that this thing that buys them PLEX is fundamentally unbalanced.

You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets.[/quote]

Again, you prove my point. CARRIER.

How many times does one have to safe up in high sec when not war decced again? That half a dozen times is about a half dozen more than you will ever have to do in high sec. Which is the point (thanks for helpoing me make it). The safety of high sec provides so much UN-measurable value that magnifies the problem.

If High Sec systems turned into low sec when an Incursion hit, no one in their right minds would complain about them, you'd be risking a ship to make that kind of isk. I'd personally be calling for an isk buff to high sec incursions since they would be functionally low sec risk level anyways.

High Sec incursions are having your cake (safety) and eating it too (null sec capital ship level income with a sub-capital ship). This really needs to change, and I'm hoping that change come sin the form of Drifters.
Acktose5123
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1303 - 2015-11-23 21:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Acktose5123
Jenn aSide wrote:
Incursion runners hide behind "you need a fleet" because iot's the only thin thread keeping them from the pain of having to admit that this thing that buys them PLEX is fundamentally unbalanced.

I wouldn't exactly call requiring a 5x increase in damage output + logistics support a "thin" line.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Again, you prove my point. CARRIER.

I run a carrier because its nearly afk-able. I could run them in a blinged out pirate faction battleship (sound familiar?) and probably do them quicker and easier.

Jenn aSide wrote:
How many times does one have to safe up in high sec when not war decced again?

More times than you might think. Two people who didn't "safe up":

https://zkillboard.com/kill/50170573/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50265032/

(Just what I found after a few seconds looking at zkill)
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#1304 - 2015-11-23 21:25:12 UTC
The EVE Vegas slides pointed out something that is a big contradiction in what CCP has said many times over the years - that Incursions were not a significant ISK faucet. I don't know if the data was presented incorrectly (either in the past or now) or if the EVE economics or incursion participation has drastically changed, but Incursions, at ISK faucet #3, are definitely more than just a bump in the road now.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1305 - 2015-11-23 21:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Jefferson
Jenn aSide wrote:
Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol.


Eh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure nestled in the early pages of this are all sorts of posts from both of us that agree HS in it's present form has to go. Blah blah asphyxiates content, blah blah, kills null, robs opportunities for meaningful gameplay.

Seriously though. Smart bears will go to places where it's safe to bear, and find people with which it is equally safe to bear with. Now this opens up a different tangent as there should be no such place in reality, but in practice, well..not so much. A ratting carrier in Deklein, so long as the pilot isn't full derp mode, is under so little actual danger. You don't know how many times I have been thanked for making all the Ishtars and Gilas dock up so the Chimeras can have the lion's share of anomalies. It is sort of hilarious knowing that I am helping ratters more than hurting them with each kill. Purely a question of scale.

Yes. Capitals cannot teleport across the map. That's both good on one hand, and a problem on the other, because local capital supremacy can never be realistically challenged. When you have 20 or more Chimera that can all instantly come to the aid of one that is tackled, there is no appreciable sub-cap force that can do anything to it. Appropriately scaled, the risk in null is meaningless and almost completely negligible. That's what I think you just aren't seeing - yeah you can say it's 'risking multiple capital ships', but as you have more and more of them, the risk goes down and down. Carriers are cheap even, for the cost of one blingy Nightmare or Vindicator, you can get a decent ratting fit; get 13 or so of these or whatever the size for Vanguards is these days, and well...it would take a hell of a lot to ever realistically provide a threat. WHs are even less of a threat these days thanks to them being nerfed.

In either case, though the numbers may be different, it is still philosophically the same problem; the relative risk to the reward is out of synch. Granted, players at least enforce the local capital supremacy rather than CONCORD protecting incursion runners, so there is that, and null anomalies at least foster some player content.

Optimally, every resource should be contestable. Player's being able to mess with the aims of other players is what makes this game interesting. Yes, HS incursions are the elephant in the room because they foster zero player conflict and are among the top money makers (per player, per hour), yet are in HS. It's just a question of how many wealth faucets basically do not have risk associated with them in the right amounts. Yeah Incursions are silly, but they are not alone given all the other ways to make money.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1306 - 2015-11-23 22:05:51 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol.


Eh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure nestled in the early pages of this are all sorts of posts from both of us that agree HS in it's present form has to go. Blah blah asphyxiates content, blah blah, kills null, robs opportunities for meaningful gameplay.

Seriously though. Smart bears will go to places where it's safe to bear, and find people with which it is equally safe to bear with. Now this opens up a different tangent as there should be no such place in reality, but in practice, well..not so much. A ratting carrier in Deklein, so long as the pilot isn't full derp mode, is under so little actual danger. You don't know how many times I have been thanked for making all the Ishtars and Gilas dock up so the Chimeras can have the lion's share of anomalies. It is sort of hilarious knowing that I am helping ratters more than hurting them with each kill. Purely a question of scale.

Yes. Capitals cannot teleport across the map. That's both good on one hand, and a problem on the other, because local capital supremacy can never be realistically challenged. When you have 20 or more Chimera that can all instantly come to the aid of one that is tackled, there is no appreciable sub-cap force that can do anything to it. Appropriately scaled, the risk in null is meaningless and almost completely negligible. That's what I think you just aren't seeing - yeah you can say it's 'risking multiple capital ships', but as you have more and more of them, the risk goes down and down. Carriers are cheap even, for the cost of one blingy Nightmare or Vindicator, you can get a decent ratting fit; get 13 or so of these or whatever the size for Vanguards is these days, and well...it would take a hell of a lot to ever realistically provide a threat. WHs are even less of a threat these days thanks to them being nerfed.

In either case, though the numbers may be different, it is still philosophically the same problem; the relative risk to the reward is out of synch. Granted, players at least enforce the local capital supremacy rather than CONCORD protecting incursion runners, so there is that, and null anomalies at least foster some player content.

Optimally, every resource should be contestable. Player's being able to mess with the aims of other players is what makes this game interesting. Yes, HS incursions are the elephant in the room because they foster zero player conflict and are among the top money makers (per player, per hour), yet are in HS. It's just a question of how many wealth faucets basically do not have risk associated with them in the right amounts. Yeah Incursions are silly, but they are not alone given all the other ways to make money.



It's funny you mention contestable. It's always been a disappointment for me that everything in Eve becomes total Grind-fest.

With incursions, a huge opportunity to combine elements of PVP and PVe were missed. Contestable PVe would have been a boon to the game. With incursions, prior to the actual Incursion content being introduced, there were only live events around it, heralding the new content, for which there were players dedicated to fighting them and players dedicated to fighting alongside Sansha.
Introduction of Incursions as content was a let-down. It was all about just more content to grind away at, and Sansha loyalists got screwed out of it. Were it up to me (TM) I would have included deadppace incursion pockets with lions share of payouts but they would have been PVP zones too with chances for Sansha loyalists to earn Sansha LP for their efforts.

Aside from FW, it appears that in every other aspect there is this huge wall between PVe and PVP and this creates a wide gulf. So you have PVPers in underwear who have nothing and PVE'ers in bling boats.

I know people would just say "Have incursions in nullsec. There's your PVP" but we all know how nullsec PVe goes: it's only viable deep past the intel channels and gank pipelines. Changes to jumping may have helped at least to some mitigation of "super cap/BLOPs/hotdrop kill-everything-that-moves-for-no-reason because we can" style of game play but the changes and adaptations on that are still being worked out.

In the end I would call these happy problems. But I'll still hold out hope for "Contestable PVe" where it's in the mission that you would have to kill another player to get something. Getting a damsel stolen by someone's aspie problem child only makes people feel like they are logging in to babysit and it counter-productive. Giving (for example) two players the same mission for one object at the same time, now that's what I'm talking about.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1307 - 2015-11-23 22:10:38 UTC
Acktose5123 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Acktose5123 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion

I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more).


I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol.

I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all.

As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil.

Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom.

You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets.


you dont have to "safe up" in highsec incursions

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#1308 - 2015-11-24 03:47:28 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Acktose5123 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Acktose5123 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion

I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more).


I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol.

I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all.

As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil.

Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom.

You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets.


you dont have to "safe up" in highsec incursions


You don't have to fleet to run anoms.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1309 - 2015-11-24 03:54:42 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol.


Eh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure nestled in the early pages of this are all sorts of posts from both of us that agree HS in it's present form has to go. Blah blah asphyxiates content, blah blah, kills null, robs opportunities for meaningful gameplay.

Seriously though. Smart bears will go to places where it's safe to bear, and find people with which it is equally safe to bear with. Now this opens up a different tangent as there should be no such place in reality, but in practice, well..not so much. A ratting carrier in Deklein, so long as the pilot isn't full derp mode, is under so little actual danger. You don't know how many times I have been thanked for making all the Ishtars and Gilas dock up so the Chimeras can have the lion's share of anomalies. It is sort of hilarious knowing that I am helping ratters more than hurting them with each kill. Purely a question of scale.

Yes. Capitals cannot teleport across the map. That's both good on one hand, and a problem on the other, because local capital supremacy can never be realistically challenged. When you have 20 or more Chimera that can all instantly come to the aid of one that is tackled, there is no appreciable sub-cap force that can do anything to it. Appropriately scaled, the risk in null is meaningless and almost completely negligible. That's what I think you just aren't seeing - yeah you can say it's 'risking multiple capital ships', but as you have more and more of them, the risk goes down and down. Carriers are cheap even, for the cost of one blingy Nightmare or Vindicator, you can get a decent ratting fit; get 13 or so of these or whatever the size for Vanguards is these days, and well...it would take a hell of a lot to ever realistically provide a threat. WHs are even less of a threat these days thanks to them being nerfed.

In either case, though the numbers may be different, it is still philosophically the same problem; the relative risk to the reward is out of synch. Granted, players at least enforce the local capital supremacy rather than CONCORD protecting incursion runners, so there is that, and null anomalies at least foster some player content.

Optimally, every resource should be contestable. Player's being able to mess with the aims of other players is what makes this game interesting. Yes, HS incursions are the elephant in the room because they foster zero player conflict and are among the top money makers (per player, per hour), yet are in HS. It's just a question of how many wealth faucets basically do not have risk associated with them in the right amounts. Yeah Incursions are silly, but they are not alone given all the other ways to make money.


Players will always find a way to lock down a steady income. Lack of content is not the result of safe PvE activities.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#1310 - 2015-11-24 05:20:52 UTC
Valacus wrote:


You don't have to fleet to run anoms.


I am fairly sure that it take more effort to form group for raid in WoW than join incursion fleet.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1311 - 2015-11-24 05:38:06 UTC
Acktose5123 wrote:


https://zkillboard.com/kill/50170573/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50265032/

(Just what I found after a few seconds looking at zkill)


Two bads who blinged their level 4 ships. Normal high sec mission and incursion ships are not profitable to gank and are as close to 100% safe as you can get. PVE ship losses in the most secure null sov space dwarfs highsec losses.
Cannibal Zuza
Doomheim
#1312 - 2015-11-24 06:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Zuza
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything....


I contest that you are doing it wrong. While I agree that HS incursions need to be less lucrative for a ton of reasons, just the way lots of these wealth generators need to be rebalanced, it's silly to make null look all that bad.

Thanks to Phoebe, ratting in null is very safe, approaching the levels of Hi Sec incursion safety. If other people can even make you want to stop ratting, then you are ratting improperly and/or the entity you are a part of needs to get their act together. We live in an age when carrier ratting is not only perfectly reasonable, it is the optimal way to rat in null. Per account, yes you earn less than a HS incursion alt, but considering that when this is scaled up with many players and all of their alts, the net income per unit of effort in null is not all that bad.

If you want to see null buffed, risk has to be re-introduced. Honestly it's pretty similar to Faction War missions, as players have found ways to mitigate 95% of the risk by using bombers; its unlikely they were designed to be done solo and in a ship that has essentially no risk, given how plexes are designed to be contested. Right now it's a buffet, do you want to make risk-free ISK in null, low, or High? Content is stifled when resources are this available, accessible, and of such a high quality.


Quit your whining about content dude. Every single one of your post has been whining about lack of content this, lack of content that. Is the word content all you null knuckleheads know of?

The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance that those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.

If you want content in your blue haven then I'll give you some of Zuza's wisdom. In the age of the blue box which you nullies live in, I suggest to you the art of Awoxing. This is the golden age for Awoxers at this time and it'll get 10x better when CCP introduces those SP skill pack injectors in this game. All it takes is 6 months to skill up for a good awoxing toon and once you've planted those seeds in a decent Alliance you'll never thurst for content ever again.
Top Guac
Doomheim
#1313 - 2015-11-24 07:51:45 UTC
Cannibal Zuza wrote:
Quit your whining about content dude. Every single one of your post has been whining about lack of content this, lack of content that. Is the word content all you null knuckleheads know of?

The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.

If you want content in your blue haven then I'll give you some of Zuza's wisdom. In the age of the blue box which you nullies live in, I suggest to you the art of Awoxing. This is the golden age for Awoxers at this time and it'll get 10x better when CCP introduces those SP skill pack injectors in this game. All it takes is 6 months to skill up for a good awoxing toon and once you planted those seeds in a decent Alliance you'll never thurst for content ever again.

Who's alt are you?

Lucas Kell's, Market McSelling Alt's, Epeen's?

Maybe you're all just the one person anyway.

Grow some balls woman and post on your main.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1314 - 2015-11-24 08:32:59 UTC
Cannibal Zuza wrote:
Quit your whining about content dude. Every single one of your post has been whining about lack of content this, lack of content that. Is the word content all you null knuckleheads know of?

The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.

If you want content in your blue haven then I'll give you some of Zuza's wisdom. In the age of the blue box which you nullies live in, I suggest to you the art of Awoxing. This is the golden age for Awoxers at this time and it'll get 10x better when CCP introduces those SP skill pack injectors in this game. All it takes is 6 months to skill up for a good awoxing toon and once you planted those seeds in a decent Alliance you'll never thurst for content ever again.

ok i literally just resubbed specifically to tell you i'm very disappointed in you
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1315 - 2015-11-24 08:33:50 UTC
I mean NULL-CKLEHEADS was RIGHT. THERE.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#1316 - 2015-11-24 18:03:29 UTC

So long as CCP in general insists on prioritizing the sale of salads to vegans, who spend their days sitting on plush bean bag chairs in hipster coffee houses in hisec, EvE will never reach critical mass based on what actually generates buzz and sells EvE.

CCP has already spent the last few years trying to make hisec safer and more content-rich, while kicking their bread-and-butter hype machine in nullsec di-rectly in the ballsack...and do they now wonder in amazement why a massive migration and land-grab from the other regions into the new nullsec hasn't happened while hisec remains a content and ISK rich land of milk and honey?

Here's a hint...

BR-5's, 6-VDT's and large scale battles sell eve. A dank mining, incursion running or industry video from hisec comparatively does not.

CCP was bold with nullsec changes. Time to be bold again.

F



Would you like to know more?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1317 - 2015-11-24 18:19:01 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

So long as CCP in general insists on prioritizing the sale of salads to vegans, who spend their days sitting on plush bean bag chairs in hipster coffee houses in hisec, EvE will never reach critical mass based on what actually generates buzz and sells EvE.

CCP has already spent the last few years trying to make hisec safer and more content-rich, while kicking their bread-and-butter hype machine in nullsec di-rectly in the ballsack...and do they now wonder in amazement why a massive migration and land-grab from the other regions into the new nullsec hasn't happened while hisec remains a content and ISK rich land of milk and honey?

Here's a hint...

BR-5's, 6-VDT's and large scale battles sell eve. A dank mining, incursion running or industry video from hisec comparatively does not.

CCP was bold with nullsec changes. Time to be bold again.

F





I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever.

What it will do is make my take tech2 fit mach alt teams into wormholes to make isk. People who already don't mind loosing ships might lose a few more, but it wouldn't have the impact you think it would.

I know the idea sounds good in your head, but it's not.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#1318 - 2015-11-24 18:56:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever.

Well one example from personal experience is how we sat outside Brave's HQ with only 8-10 megathrons and they wouldn't come out to fight until an FC who could authorize SRP logged on first. Groups like that are brave and will bring a fight, IF they have SRP or readily replaceable ships...

Thus my opinion, that if thunderdome is ever to happen in EvE the pain of ship loss needs to be transferred from ships to structures (or something else) instead, because ships are the very fuel we burn for content. Heresy I know, but for many not as EvE-wealthy as vets its the hard truth. We want content, we have to make ships the cheap fuel for content they are.

F

Would you like to know more?
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1319 - 2015-11-24 19:16:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
It's funny you mention contestable.


Oh, it would be a dream come true if you could fight for the Sansha in incursions in HS, or there was a FW like militia you could join to fight for them, instead of against them. Heck, if having good standings towards Sansha just prevented the rats from attacking you, ganking incursion runners during an incursion would be closer to viable.

Imagine doing experiments on rats. You limit one groups access to food and water, and expose them to predators - the strongest, quickest, and smartest will do best on average. Another group, you give free access to as much food and water as you want and there are no predators - they become fat, lazy, and disengaged with things.

New Eden is supposed to be the former, but has become the latter. This is not just a hi sec problem. People will find the game more enjoyable when they have to collaborate, work together, and conspire just to tread water, rather than having such a glut of resources bore them into ennui.


Cannibal Zuza wrote:

The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance that those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.


Interesting considering my current alliance has no blues at all. My comments (complaints if you will) center around how insulated null has become from antagonists, content creators, etc, in the wake of Phoebe. Have you shot at sov holders recently? Things would be more interesting if it were not so easy to stay safe out there, just as things would be more interesting if incursions weren't absurd income which is both completely safe and always available.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Well one example from personal experience is how we sat outside Brave's HQ with only 8-10 megathrons and they wouldn't come out to fight until an FC who could authorize SRP logged on first. Groups like that are brave and will bring a fight, IF they have SRP or readily replaceable ships...


Former BL complaining Brave won't undock is dumb. You overfarmed them into senescence; groups being irresponsible like that is part of the reason we can't have nice things, as some people just don't know how to responsibly manage the rich natural resources of null. To expect them to recklessly welp ships to you on their own dime is silly. Ah well, at least BL learned what happens when all the content is gone. Shoulda read the Lorax.

Seriously though, part of the problem with this is that there are too many monolithic, big groups out there and not a whole lot of smaller operations, which there need to be. Between logistical concerns and the income streams that be, smaller groups just have it harder. Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game, but one of the poorest; people WANT to live the small gang and small group lifestyle, but it is almost impossible to do so without alts and making income other places. The proper solution then, to actually enable playstyles that are not attached to large dominating groups, is to put good income streams in NPC null while taking them out of places that do not need them.



Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1320 - 2015-11-24 19:32:05 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever.

Well one example from personal experience is how we sat outside Brave's HQ with only 8-10 megathrons and they wouldn't come out to fight until an FC who could authorize SRP logged on first. Groups like that are brave and will bring a fight, IF they have SRP or readily replaceable ships...

Thus my opinion, that if thunderdome is ever to happen in EvE the pain of ship loss needs to be transferred from ships to structures (or something else) instead, because ships are the very fuel we burn for content. Heresy I know, but for many not as EvE-wealthy as vets its the hard truth. We want content, we have to make ships the cheap fuel for content they are.

F



Higher insurance payouts is one way to lower the pain of ship loss, but I don't think it's the best option. Ships just need to be outright cheaper, frigates, destroyers, and cruisers are all cheap enough that people dont mind throwing them away and they are the ships seen most often in pvp. Battleships are when the exponential cost increase starts to get a little silly. 150m for a slow hull capable of little more than a much cheaper cruiser? Why bother.

Alternatively making the isk to buy a ship could be less of a grind and that would have the same effect. Everyone must rember starting out and thinking "damn I lost my BC better go farm missions for hours to get it back"; why does it take several hours to earn the isk for a ship which will last you minutes.

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