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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#581 - 2015-11-22 09:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The problem is tracking, no web, no tracking bonus and weapons that don't track well to begin with. I also wouldn't try to use a 10mn ab fit for scram kiting without a web he'll be so much more agile you haven't got a hope of keeping them on the edge of scram range even if you have better speed than him. so for me it's going to be face brawling with blasters and 10mn ab or kiting with mwd and distuptor.


That was my thought, ether blasters or autos or pulse, depending on how much fitting you want left over for the rest.

It wont be agile enough for scram kiting no, but it will be able to hug an AB/web frig, or escape from it.

You basically have the range control capability of a web but with a lot less agility, but with the speed of a mwd.

I'm sure a small gang fit with oversize AB in combination with its tiny sig might make for something quite effective also.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#582 - 2015-11-22 09:48:07 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The problem is tracking, no web, no tracking bonus and weapons that don't track well to begin with. I also wouldn't try to use a 10mn ab fit for scram kiting without a web he'll be so much more agile you haven't got a hope of keeping them on the edge of scram range even if you have better speed than him. so for me it's going to be face brawling with blasters and 10mn ab or kiting with mwd and distuptor.


That was my thought, ether blasters or autos or pulse, depending on how much fitting you want left over for the rest.

It wont be agile enough for scram kiting no, but it will be able to hug an AB/web frig, or escape from it.

You basically have the range control capability of a web but with a lot less agility, but with the speed of a mwd.

I'm sure a small gang fit with oversize AB in combination with its tiny sig might make for something quite effective also.


TBH i think the 10mn ab punisher will do quite well with beams; it's got the powergrid and capacitor for it, and as it was stated earlier the punisher is actually quite fast when fit correctly. Punk an ASB on there after fitting speed/dps and you're (quite literally) golden.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#583 - 2015-11-22 14:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Feodor Romanov
For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes.
All ship rebalance changes in upcoming patch are really good. Good job CCP.
Lady Inferus
Grey Operations
#584 - 2015-11-22 17:46:46 UTC
I love all the additions for combative ships but what about some new stuff for Industrial and Mining ships. for example with the orca yes its an industrial command ship but it seriously does not make sense that with the three high power slots that either a Rig to allow a turret mounting or just to allow a single strip miner can not be allowable. just my 2 cents worth though.

I can definately understand trying to keep the afk mining to a minimum but if you have a single strip miner on an orca and you are mining you will have to be more active as it will burn through asteroids much faster then with five tech 2 mining drones.
Paladin Genghis Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#585 - 2015-11-22 18:11:41 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes.


How so?
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#586 - 2015-11-22 22:06:45 UTC
Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes.


How so?

If I understand you right, you pointed this: "But will become very interesting after this changes.". I tried to EFT some fits keeping new changes in mind. Here what I got.
Gang support: 1 Vampire; MWD+scrm(or web); 2 x 400mm plates, DC, Energ. and nano membranes = 20k+ EHP, 70% worst resist, 2471 m/s unheat with links, 26 sig, 5kk price. This thing can tank better then many cruisers. You can use 3-4 "punished" newbees to replace even Huginn+Lach when price matters.

Frigate fleet main DPS: duals or focused, AB or MWD, 400mm plate and minimum 2 armor pumps. After the changes punisher will have mederate DPS for t1 frigates (160-180 unheated conflags), but best tank. When used with logis I think this thing will shine.

Solo is still not so good, but more interesting then before: New AB+scrm Pun can be easy fitted 400mm plate + AR with speed 1000+ m/s, 160-180 DPS and stay cap stable.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#587 - 2015-11-23 06:15:29 UTC
The problem is that the Punisher is good in many ways BECAUSE it only has 2 midslots, would it be given a third and left unchanged it'd be hilariously overpowered. So while I'd like it to get a third I realise that this would then mean nerfing the ship as such and whichever they'd do people would be whining about it.

Having said that I'm not a fan of a 2 midslot frigate that's heavily based on cap that can't use a nos.
Moose doing Moosethings
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#588 - 2015-11-23 09:46:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie,
Please give the rifter a 3-4-3 slot layout.
I would be oh so happy!

250 artilleries with range bonus.
Prop mod, two webifiers, and a point in the mids for best-in-class range control.
3 slots in the lows to put a tank, more speed, or more damage. Throw an aux in one of them to load 280's in the highs.

You know you want to! Give in to the temptation!
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
#589 - 2015-11-23 10:53:00 UTC
As combat refitting is being removed, shall we see yet another role for our beloved Nestor?
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#590 - 2015-11-23 11:32:16 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
The problem is that the Punisher is good in many ways BECAUSE it only has 2 midslots, would it be given a third and left unchanged it'd be hilariously overpowered. So while I'd like it to get a third I realise that this would then mean nerfing the ship as such and whichever they'd do people would be whining about it.

Having said that I'm not a fan of a 2 midslot frigate that's heavily based on cap that can't use a nos.


I think Tristan will remain on the top of most frigate t1 roles. Punisher will be the second. The new Pun will be best only in larger ships gang support role and only till those pilots learn skills to fly Malediction. So not many things will change after rebalance to call new Pun hilariously OP.
We already have Pun with 3 mid slots and moderate stats, as you suggest. This is Tormentor. If Pun will have 3 mid slots, it must be missile or drone boat then to be different.
Paladin Genghis Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#591 - 2015-11-24 03:09:25 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes.


How so?

If I understand you right, you pointed this: "But will become very interesting after this changes.". I tried to EFT some fits keeping new changes in mind. Here what I got.
Gang support: 1 Vampire; MWD+scrm(or web); 2 x 400mm plates, DC, Energ. and nano membranes = 20k+ EHP, 70% worst resist, 2471 m/s unheat with links, 26 sig, 5kk price. This thing can tank better then many cruisers. You can use 3-4 "punished" newbees to replace even Huginn+Lach when price matters.

Frigate fleet main DPS: duals or focused, AB or MWD, 400mm plate and minimum 2 armor pumps. After the changes punisher will have mederate DPS for t1 frigates (160-180 unheated conflags), but best tank. When used with logis I think this thing will shine.

Solo is still not so good, but more interesting then before: New AB+scrm Pun can be easy fitted 400mm plate + AR with speed 1000+ m/s, 160-180 DPS and stay cap stable.


So you plan to use lasers instead of hybrids or projectiles? And be cap stable? Interesting.

I feel like these changes will kill it as a PvE vessel. I wonder if they will change the military career mission giveaway ship to a Tormentor.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#592 - 2015-11-24 09:46:06 UTC
Cap stability is overrated.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#593 - 2015-11-24 10:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Feodor Romanov
Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes.


How so?

If I understand you right, you pointed this: "But will become very interesting after this changes.". I tried to EFT some fits keeping new changes in mind. Here what I got.
Gang support: 1 Vampire; MWD+scrm(or web); 2 x 400mm plates, DC, Energ. and nano membranes = 20k+ EHP, 70% worst resist, 2471 m/s unheat with links, 26 sig, 5kk price. This thing can tank better then many cruisers. You can use 3-4 "punished" newbees to replace even Huginn+Lach when price matters.

Frigate fleet main DPS: duals or focused, AB or MWD, 400mm plate and minimum 2 armor pumps. After the changes punisher will have mederate DPS for t1 frigates (160-180 unheated conflags), but best tank. When used with logis I think this thing will shine.

Solo is still not so good, but more interesting then before: New AB+scrm Pun can be easy fitted 400mm plate + AR with speed 1000+ m/s, 160-180 DPS and stay cap stable.


So you plan to use lasers instead of hybrids or projectiles? And be cap stable? Interesting.

I feel like these changes will kill it as a PvE vessel. I wonder if they will change the military career mission giveaway ship to a Tormentor.


For fleet DPS Puns lasers will be ok.
For Solo, 200 AC+AR Pun is good and have many benefits. But 1000 m/s speed+no web make Pun incapable to control range. To compensate this I think about using the lasers. Lasers can apply good DPS to any target inside scrm range. Looks like Focused+AAR AB Pun wil have 1,5-2 mins of cap and could fully restore cap during AAR recharge. Has Pun enough armor buffer to servive AAR recharge tests will answer. Any way most of the frigate fights end before AAR recharge.
Blasters are good for ships that have total control of combat range. That is not about Pun.
PS: I do not understand how upcoming changes can kill Pun as PVE ship.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#594 - 2015-11-24 15:05:10 UTC
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#595 - 2015-11-24 15:11:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


is that it? after 30 pages a minor if not irrelevant change

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#596 - 2015-11-24 15:30:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#597 - 2015-11-24 15:56:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.

What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC?

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#598 - 2015-11-24 16:06:14 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.

What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC?

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#599 - 2015-11-24 16:29:23 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.




It's railly good
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#600 - 2015-11-24 16:31:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


5 drones not 9

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*