EVE General Discussion

True, I don't know that much about them since I'm not into mining. But I've gather enough intel about them to know that it does provide nullbears with a very lucrative income stream source not attainable in high or low sec.

And I've only mentioned moon mining once.

It is attainable in lowsec (some of the biggest fights in lowsec recently have been over money moons.

The difficulty with moon mining as an income source is, it is not an individual source of income. It's Corporation/Alliance level income, so most players don't gain anything from it on a daily basis.

Where they do benefit is from decisions made by their Alliance leadership in relation to how to use the income, but the idea that all null players have access to 100% SRP or somehow regularly benefit from moon income is very inaccurate.

Additionally, not all regions are as valuable as all others (kind of one of those things that's supposed to drive conflict but doesn't effectively) and even within each region, not all constellations provide equal moon income.

It can be very profitable for Corps/Alliances, but that is also quite variable.

Here for example is my mapping of the DS-M4Q constellation in Syndicate:

http://puu.sh/lukzu/9a819319a1.png

There are 4 different Alliances that own moons in the constellation and from the setup of the towers, the profit each month on the raw materials is roughly half a PLEX (and that's split across 4 Alliances) from 28 'money' moons.

The 4 large towers make a loss on the basic materials, but are all running reactions, so they probably make up for the loss on running costs, through their simple and complex reactions.

But overall, the income of around 3-4 billion ISK, from 28 moons split between 4 Alliances is pretty low, especially for the effort required to maintain all those towers each month.

While that's one of the poorer constellations, here's another that is quite typical:

http://puu.sh/lukPz/fb5289f432.png

There are 6 Alliances that own the moons in that constellation, making less than 3 Billion ISK per month split across all of the 12 towers (the offline tower in 6-C is making 0 and costing 0, so the figure can be slightly adjusted).

I've mapped the towers for each constellation across quite a few regions, both NPC and sov and the idea of unlimited passive income for most Alliances is very exaggerated. The moons take quite a bit of upkeep in fuel each month, emptying the silos, running reactions, etc. It is passive, but kind of in the same way that PI is passive. The more you want to make out of it, the less passive it is. None of the values in that spreadsheet include the costs of hauling fuels in and products out to market and they don't take into account the value of the effort needed to maintain it all.

Certainly some Alliance make very good profit, just from raw materials, but most Alliances based on the data I have, are only making a very small amount from moons, which may also partly explain why SRP and other programs are in the minority.

For comparison to something more valuable, here's another Syndicate constellation that is much better (also 6 Alliances split between those moons):

http://puu.sh/lulYc/b4975a0f63.png

While that's all NPC data (since I don't think it would be right to publish the sov data I have), sov is similar in many regions.

*All costs and prices are eve-central marketdata values for Jita 4-4

Sov upgrades don't affect moon output, so the moon income is independent of who owns sov or whether there is an IHUB installed.

Moon income is fixed at 100 units of a resource per hour, with value added on top of the raw materials through reactions to eventually produce T2 materials. No amount of sov upgrade or time holding sov affects those moon resources.

So as far as moon income goes, some sov constellations are no more valuable than some lowsec constellations (and many are lower in value) and the conflict driver should come from different regions offering more value than some other regions, but it's still quite variable overall.

For individual Alliance members the biggest impact on their income is IHUB upgrades that ensure a constant flow of anomolies as outlined in this devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-of-sov-nullsec-pve-and-upgrades/

Of those, the pirate detection array is the most relevant and where players can rat in nullsec in relative peace, the amount of ratting is huge as the Dotlan stats show:

http://puu.sh/lurVb/a34081506c.png

That's around 1700 rats killed every hour in 2-84WC for the last 24 hours, which is just enormous.

However, as soon as conflict comes to a region, ratting drops. Here's a comparison of a relatively quiet system in Insmother:

http://puu.sh/lus5p/f4c6436331.png

Less than 200 rats killed in the last 24 hours and not even a lot of pvp, just a lot of traffic moving through the system which means ratters can't rat freely and can't earn ISK.

On the mining side, the recent mineral rebalance had the desired effect in terms of value for each regions asteroid belts:

http://puu.sh/luqCQ/10158d9b17.png

However, even within sov space, not all constellations provide G6 or G7 (lowest true sec) systems that offer good asteroids to mine. In many cases, constellations are no more valuable than what you find in lowsec for mining.

Delve is a good example of that:

http://puu.sh/lur3G/8f4e81f8eb.png

The two constellations highlighted there offer very different opportunities for mining and it's no wonder that the constellation centred around NOL-M9 is not owned currently, since it has through traffic and terrible mining opportunities.

Whereas the other constellation highlighted has one G7 security system with valuable ores and two systems with ice to help fuel jump freighters and POSs.

I think this is where a lot of issues come for individual line members in sov, especially under the Aegis Sov mechanics.

In Regions owned by mega Alliances and Coalitions, it might be relatively easy to move between systems with jump bridges and even using gates.

However, in Aegis Sov, which is supposed to encourage small Alliances to take space (Delve is a good example of that occurring) they might be able to take and hold a constellation or two. But what value are they able to derive from that, especially on an individual level?

It's not an easy question to answer and we always tend to over simplify the issue here in the forum. The common argument is that all sov holding Alliances are making mega ISK off moons and the members are rolling in good asteroids and the ability to print ISK.

But it just isn't the case since there is a lot of variation within regions. In an ideal New Eden, that would all drive conflict and Alliances would fight over the valuable constellations in order to provide maximum benefit to their members.

But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?

Amazing.

Once again, complete ignorance.

You do realise you can cap a dead moon and make lots of isk doing so?

It is not your fault that your alliance leadership stops you frrom doing so.

Alliance leadership cares for moons that have raw material to mine because that is by far the easiest way to make huge amounts of passive isk. BUT you are still ignoring the fact that you can make ISK on dead moons.

"all of the maintenance" LOL - fuel it and turn off a couple of silos to empty. Such hard work.

Don't try and tell me i'm wrong, I manage 16 poses and spend no less than 5 hours a week "managing" them. It took a few more to set them up but as for the "oh having these towers is such hard work" argument. -> exit door is that way.

But why play in null sec if it is so bad then. With all the changes to force projection null sec couldnt be even more safer than it was 1 year ago.

This yes 100 times.

Didn't CCP change force projection recently making null sec even more safer...

RISK vs REWARD "we live in null sec so risk is much higher than any other part of the game" has become so diminished over the years that it's not even close to what it was. Pre 2012 there was an argument but as null sec has become more friendlier to live in as well as the changes to mechanics, it's a lot less riskier in null sec.

Who said it was bad?

There are many players that will never leave highsec. Highsec is perfect for them and that is a completely valid choice. They should have the opportunity to have engaging play that attracts them.

Equally, there are others that prefer lowsec mechanics, which is perfectly fine for them also.

As well, there are players that like nullsec.

Each space offers different mechanics and each is going to attract a different type of player. All of them are good in their own way.

I'd like to introduce you to a little app.

http://postimg.org/image/npbs0qix7/

PS: They only need defending if they are attacked. POS's, unless anchored in a remote location making them easy targets, will not be hit.

My data on moon mining economy in null/low sec has been updated thanks to you. Just how did you learn such vast knowledge in such a short time span or is your main much older?

Also, is it true you can earn great isk on dead moons?