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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1161 - 2015-11-20 17:56:00 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
StuRyan wrote:
If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS.



So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk? That is what is needed to balance incursions? Ability depends on the space you are in, in highsec you have to do nothing to make the safe space. In nullsec most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile removing your ability to run sites like you do in highsec. Willingness you can hardly blame them for taking the easy, logical, reasonable option that CCP have provided; it exists and others will use it so why shouldn't I?

You should try to separate your contribution to the fleet from the organisation provided by the community. Individually I know that I contribute 1/40th of our success and that there are at all times at least 5 or 6 people waiting to fill my spot should I get bored or anything else happen. You are basically being handed money for no effort by you. I shoot targets and broadcast for reps but I'm under no illusion that I'm actually having to put in any effort. The hardest part of highsec incursions to me is just moving my slow battleship around, and that says a lot about the risk involved.


Nobody is denying null sec is tough but thats the trade off you made for living in null sec. You also have access to the biggest form of passive isk in the form of moons. These alone could make you substancially more ISK/hour than an incursion runner does.

I disagree 100% "most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile "; most of NPC space is empty, a vast majority of sov null sec is empty where exaclty are these hostiles? If anything you null bears are pretty good at blobbing but you have trouble blobbing an null sec incursion.

"Whole of nullsec should put their differences aside for the noble goal of farming ISK?" You've already accomplished that.

Don't let the fact that becuase nobody can own high sec it isn't tough especially with the likes of Code about. Supply and demand is a considerably more diverse in high sec.
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1162 - 2015-11-20 18:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: StuRyan
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
StuRyan wrote:
If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS.



So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk?


He probably does think that. Extreme self interest (ie don't nerf this thing i depend on, even if it's terrible) and prejudice (notice the word 'nullbears') causes delusion, and delusion makes unreasonable things (all null should blue up and incursion farm) seem reasonable to people like that lol.

Like I been saying, it really doesn't matter what people like that think. Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too.


I don't depend on anything incursion related, I actually enjoy, more than anything, the fact that we work together and we get rewarded the same way you do for securing a part of null sec. The issue here is you seem completely ignorant in accepting you have the same opportunity to make more isk/hour in null running the exact same things, plus the fact that once space is secured you have a vast amount of ways to make ISK in a solo manner.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1163 - 2015-11-20 18:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Jenn aSide wrote:
Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too.


Good to hear that CCP are aware of it, not so good that they've taken so long to notice the payouts are out of line but slow progress is still progress.

StuRyan wrote:
I disagree 100% "most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile "; most of NPC space is empty, a vast majority of sov null sec is empty where exaclty are these hostiles? If anything you null bears are pretty good at blobbing but you have trouble blobbing an null sec incursion


If I wanted to blob a nullsec incursion I would just cyno in nearby (edit: not in constellation ofc), it's not like a bunch of battleships are going to sneak away on me.

StuRyan wrote:
Don't let the fact that becuase nobody can own high sec it isn't tough especially with the likes of Code about.


High-sec does have some unique dangers in that you can't know if someone wants to gank you or not. Makes it hard to be prepared. Still, if I'm flying a vindicator around highsec I have a low chance of being ganked; if I flew it into lowsec or nullsec I would 100% certainly be pounced on by the first corp that saw me.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1164 - 2015-11-20 18:15:36 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:


Good to hear that CCP are aware of it, not so good that they've taken so long to notice the payouts are out of line but slow progress is still progress.



It's just another example of null sec influencing part of the game in the hope that is makes things more interesting for them because for some reason null sec is more special.

Mr Mieyli wrote:


If I wanted to blob a nullsec incursion I would just cyno in nearby, it's not like a bunch of battleships are going to sneak away on me.



yeah all you have to do is warp to the fleet in a nearby pos.

Mr Mieyli wrote:


High-sec does have some unique dangers in that you can't know if someone wants to gank you or not. Makes it hard to be prepared. Still, if I'm flying a vindicator around highsec I have a low chance of being ganked; if I flew it into lowsec or nullsec I would 100% certainly be pounced on by the first corp that saw me.


Pretty sure people do that just to create content for themselves. I'd be more worried as to why you were flying a vindi around in null sec without scouts if all you were doing was travelling around.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#1165 - 2015-11-20 18:15:40 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
StuRyan wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.

ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever


SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec....

SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet.

SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game...


Lazy? Or is moving a fleet of 40 battleships through who knows how many hostile jumps a recipe for disaster?


@Valacus:
I have never advocated removing incursions altogether, and I don't plan to force you anywhere. Income should scale with risk; it's one of CCP's core design approaches, however right now it is backwards and you know it to be true.


But level 4 missions already make comparable ISK. Also, incursions require 40 man fleets. That alone means the payout should be hefty, so the income is already scaling correctly.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1166 - 2015-11-20 18:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
StuRyan wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


Good to hear that CCP are aware of it, not so good that they've taken so long to notice the payouts are out of line but slow progress is still progress.



It's just another example of null sec influencing part of the game in the hope that is makes things more interesting for them because for some reason null sec is more special.

Mr Mieyli wrote:


If I wanted to blob a nullsec incursion I would just cyno in nearby, it's not like a bunch of battleships are going to sneak away on me.



yeah all you have to do is warp to the fleet in a nearby pos.

Mr Mieyli wrote:


High-sec does have some unique dangers in that you can't know if someone wants to gank you or not. Makes it hard to be prepared. Still, if I'm flying a vindicator around highsec I have a low chance of being ganked; if I flew it into lowsec or nullsec I would 100% certainly be pounced on by the first corp that saw me.


Pretty sure people do that just to create content for themselves. I'd be more worried as to why you were flying a vindi around in null sec without scouts if all you were doing was travelling around.


nullsec is more special buttercup Cool

i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?

again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1167 - 2015-11-20 18:34:56 UTC
13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.

How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?

Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.

It is amusing the arguments coming out.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1168 - 2015-11-20 18:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: StuRyan
Mr Mieyli wrote:


nullsec is more special buttercup Cool

i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?

again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense


Incursions move, be patient, one usually spawns in friendly space at least once a week.

You could also try diplomacy - it worked well for me when I arranged an agreement with an enemy. We farmed it for a week and put our standings aside.

Instead of hoping that ending HS incursions will somehow make null sec interesting again, why aren't you asking the question to ccp for incursions to spawn more regularly in your neighborhood. Now that would make null sec special! Shocked
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1169 - 2015-11-20 18:40:14 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
StuRyan wrote:
If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS.



So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk?


He probably does think that. Extreme self interest (ie don't nerf this thing i depend on, even if it's terrible) and prejudice (notice the word 'nullbears') causes delusion, and delusion makes unreasonable things (all null should blue up and incursion farm) seem reasonable to people like that lol.

Like I been saying, it really doesn't matter what people like that think. Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too.


I don't depend on anything incursion related, I actually enjoy, more than anything, the fact that we work together and we get rewarded the same way you do for securing a part of null sec. The issue here is you seem completely ignorant in accepting you have the same opportunity to make more isk/hour in null running the exact same things, plus the fact that once space is secured you have a vast amount of ways to make ISK in a solo manner.


Like I said, delusional. The choice folks like me have to make is "fly in null sec, risk getting blown up and make less isk, because getting blown up costs time, OR just log in incursion alt and make safe isk, or log in FW alt and make even more wealth at the slight cost of replacing stealth bombers once per week".

Combat PVE is broken, and Incursions are a big (but not the only) part of it. It's not about stuffing some imaginary wallet with imaginary cash, it's the distortions in the game caused by unbalanced content (as has been explained previously).

Cling to your self interest all you want, but like i said, the right people are becoming aware of this issue that hurts this game in many different ways.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1170 - 2015-11-20 18:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Anize Oramara wrote:
13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.

How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?

Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.

It is amusing the arguments coming out.


What more amusing is watching people use bad logic while smirking 9especially seeing as I know you're smarter than this, you made an amazing guide so you have to be able to think)..

We get that you types don't care about right and wrong (for the game) here, but some of us do, which is why we're going to keep talking about this.

Edit, wait, youre telling me you don't know about how POSes work in null but still decided to comment?
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1171 - 2015-11-20 18:43:29 UTC  |  Edited by: StuRyan
Jenn aSide wrote:


Like I said, delusional. The choice folks like me have to make is "fly in null sec, risk getting blown up and make less isk, because getting blown up costs time, OR just log in incursion alt and make safe isk, or log in FW alt and make even more wealth at the slight cost of replacing stealth bombers once per week".

Combat PVE is broken, and Incursions are a big (but not the only) part of it. It's not about stuffing some imaginary wallet with imaginary cash, it's the distortions in the game caused by unbalanced content (as has been explained previously).

Cling to your self interest all you want, but like i said, the right people are becoming aware of this issue that hurts this game in many different ways.


YAWN....

Couldn't be anymore delusional than right here.

Very ignorant.

Right from wrong LOL..

I've also spoken to people at Eve events; lets be on the same page here people are sick and tired of the influence of nullbears and their tears because "its not fair"; in their eyes.... boohoo.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1172 - 2015-11-20 18:45:51 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


nullsec is more special buttercup Cool

i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?

again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense


Incursions move, be patient, one usually spawns in friendly space at least once a week.

You could also try diplomacy - it worked well for me when I arranged an agreement with an enemy. We farmed it for a week and put our standings aside.

Instead of hoping that ending HS incursions will somehow make null sec interesting again, why aren't you asking the question to ccp for incursions to spawn more regularly in your neighborhood. Now that would make null sec special! Shocked


I did not write that quote..

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1173 - 2015-11-20 18:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Anize Oramara wrote:
13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.

How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?

Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.

It is amusing the arguments coming out.


cant light cynos in incursion systems, dont even know if you can setup pos's in incursion systems so thats a silly comment you still have the risk of being hellcamped on out gates by a load of battleships and supers, yeah cynos, all you need is a cyno on each out gate to ruin a nullsec incursion runners day, cant do that in highsec though huh.

everyone has intel chanels as soon as someone notices a fleet of 40 faction battleships doing an incursion you will be having a bad day.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Avvy
Doomheim
#1174 - 2015-11-20 18:49:00 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?

again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense



After reading a post answering one of mine (post #1095).

I also came to that conclusion.

It's not so much incursions but the fact that all areas are not the same and hence it's possible to do more of them in high-sec.

So is the issue the amount they pay-out or the fact high-sec can do more of them, personally I think it's the latter.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1175 - 2015-11-20 19:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?

again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense



After reading a post answering one of mine (post #1095).

I also came to that conclusion.

It's not so much incursions but the fact that all areas are not the same and hence it's possible to do more of them in high-sec.

So is the issue the amount they pay-out or the fact high-sec can do more of them, personally I think it's the latter.


It's both actually. In High you can do more AND you can use blingy ships that are impractical to move around in low/null, whcih evens out the fact that low and null incursions pay more per site. My old ISN Vindicator cost almost 6 bil all fit out. That's 3 carriers worth of isk lol. No way that Vindi would ever leave high sec. Basically it's the formula of "too much isk for the safety, to much safety for the isk". It's the nature of High Sec (with it's automated CONCORD response) that makes this possible

If CONCORD didn't spawn in Incursion sites (meaning the only defense would then be the logistics you bring), it wouldn't be as much of an issue because people would fly less blingy ships in high sec incursions thus faucetting less isk into the game, lessening the impact this imbalance has on the rest of New Eden..
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#1176 - 2015-11-20 19:15:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?

again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense



After reading a post answering one of mine (post #1095).

I also came to that conclusion.

It's not so much incursions but the fact that all areas are not the same and hence it's possible to do more of them in high-sec.

So is the issue the amount they pay-out or the fact high-sec can do more of them, personally I think it's the latter.


It's both actually. In High you can do more AND you can use blingy ships that are impractical to move around in low/null, whcih evens out the fact that low and null incursions pay more per site. My old ISN Vindicator cost almost 6 bil all fit out. That's 3 carriers worth of isk lol. No way that Vindi would ever leave high sec. Basically it's the formula of "too much isk for the safety, to much safety for the isk". It's the nature of High Sec (with it's automated CONCORD response) that makes this possible

If CONCORD didn't spawn in Incursion sites (meaning the only defense would then be the logistics you bring), it wouldn't be as much of an issue because people would fly less blingy ships in high sec incursions thus faucetting less isk into the game, lessening the impact this imbalance has on the rest of New Eden..


You still can't even prove it's imbalanced. Everything you say is based on suppositions and assumptions that simply aren't true, and your solution won't have any effect on the game even close to what you want it to.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1177 - 2015-11-20 19:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Valacus wrote:


You still can't even prove it's imbalanced. Everything you say is based on suppositions and assumptions that simply aren't true, and your solution won't have any effect on the game even close to what you want it to.



This again. Even if you don't want to accept the evidence that exists (there goes that backfire effect again) and even though you have ZERO counter evidence, you know that you can actually test this imbalance for yourself in numerous ways.

Incursion to Incursion:

Do a week of high sec incursions. Then find a group (lol) and do low or null incursions for a week. Check wallet after a week and post the results and I SWEAR I won't laugh (much) at the zeros you post because you couldn't find a low or null incursion group to join being that they largely don't exist.

Incursion to Null anomaly:

Pick a DPS ship that you do incursions with. Do a week of high sec incursions. Then use the same ship in null doing anomalies. Anoms are the main isk generators in null btw. After a week compare your gains. Try not to tear up as you see the incursion stack be much larger than the anom stack.

Now of course, to do the above, you'd have to actually be interested in the truth of these matters and that is a HUGE stumbling block for people hell bent on maintaining an advantage they know is unbalanced.. but if you can cross that barrier, you will be enlightened by what you find.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1178 - 2015-11-20 19:39:11 UTC
Valacus wrote:


So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell.


No you cant. Carrier ratting at its very best will match running level 4 missions in highsec.



Valacus wrote:

I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is


Also a big negative on that one too. Our regional ratting fleets are way bigger and way more chatty

Valacus wrote:

You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in.


Wrong again, we want change so that the best rewards require the most investment, effort and risk. I don't care if you chose to stay in highsec or not, I want a reason for me to be out in null rather than earning my isk in highsec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1179 - 2015-11-20 19:41:26 UTC
StuRyan wrote:


Nobody is denying null sec is tough but thats the trade off you made for living in null sec. You also have access to the biggest form of passive isk in the form of moons. These alone could make you substancially more ISK/hour than an incursion runner does.



They earn as much as a single ice miner does.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#1180 - 2015-11-20 19:48:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valacus wrote:


You still can't even prove it's imbalanced. Everything you say is based on suppositions and assumptions that simply aren't true, and your solution won't have any effect on the game even close to what you want it to.



This again. Even if you don't want to accept the evidence that exists (there goes that backfire effect again) and even though you have ZERO counter evidence, you know that you can actually test this imbalance for yourself in numerous ways.

Incursion to Incursion:

Do a week of high sec incursions. Then find a group (lol) and do low or null incursions for a week. Check wallet after a week and post the results and I SWEAR I won't laugh (much) at the zeros you post because you couldn't find a low or null incursion group to join being that they largely don't exist.

Incursion to Null anomaly:

Pick a DPS ship that you do incursions with. Do a week of high sec incursions. Then use the same ship in null doing anomalies. Anoms are the main isk generators in null btw. After a week compare your gains. Try not to tear up as you see the incursion stack be much larger than the anom stack.

Now of course, to do the above, you'd have to actually be interested in the truth of these matters and that is a HUGE stumbling block for people hell bent on maintaining an advantage they know is unbalanced.. but if you can cross that barrier, you will be enlightened by what you find.


Even your supposed "evidence" is all supposition. It's speculation and possible causation. Well, I can do that too.

One of the reason incursion runners, despite being few, make so much ISK is because they are well organized, and that is purely through necessity. Without organization there is no incursion running. Logistics are established ahead of time to ensure the fleets can keep running through all time zones so that all time zones can partake. Another possibility as to why incursion runners make more than their fellow EVE players is simply because they like it. Ratting in null is boring. Running level 4s is boring. Soloing is just not that fun. Incursion running at least provides conversation if nothing else. More things your "evidence" doesn't take into account. You still have nothing. The raw ISK per hour of high sec incursions vs. level 4s and null sec ratting is still comparable. Incursion runners don't make more ISK per hour, they simply run more hours of it because the activity is more bearable.