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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5801 - 2015-11-19 01:27:09 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
When it comes to Skill Points: At present there is a limit on the amount of RL cash (or PLEX which is RL cash by proxy) that can be spent on a single account.

*I pay my subs $12
*I buy 2 dual training certificates (a form of P2W)

I could pay 2 PLEX or $30 to replace one of my alts - BUT - it is just a replacement & SP gain remains constrained by the subscription/dual training mechanic.


This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training.

Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT
(market availability withstanding)

If you take away this constraint the game becomes pure PAY to WIN
No, the value of a sub is not the SP of the characters on it, else new players would pay a fraction of the sub cost that vets have and/or characters themselves would be nontransferable. A sub is simple access, not a guarantee of SP accumulation (try letting your queue lapse or losing a T3 cruiser and see what happens).

Further this pretty much throws the fundamental elements of in game trade out of the window by declaring the market P2W in entirety.

At which point it needs to be asked, if the existence of a means to create account level commodities, via real money with in game value, negates the value of the market for a player, is that player anything short of crazy for continuing to play the game? If the goal here is to stick to SP as the last bastion of defense against this definition of P2W, then the only acceptable gameplay was skill queue online to begin with barring inconsistent application of principle. And if those players only stick to it when convenient, why should the rest of us be beholden to those definitions?


"A sub is simple access and characters have no value"

Utter rubbish .... -and the character bazaar does not exist to sell these worthless toons

Or is the time invested in them of value

General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5802 - 2015-11-19 01:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Iowa Banshee wrote:

All Plex in game are the result of people purchasing them. They are not put on the market by CCP

I knew it and because of that I don't mind when someone selling extra PLEX on the market with intention to get "advantage" with RL money. It's a deal between players like with TSP.
Iowa Banshee wrote:

If you are Plexing an account you are just better at earning isk than the person that bought the plex in the first place.

So I will be better at gaining SP unless you will pay more to outcompete me. And I'm perfectly fine with that thought.
Iowa Banshee wrote:

An account cannot consume less than 1 to continuing gaining SP and cannot consume more than 3 per account for SP gain

It doesn't mean that person can't buy toon from bazaar and he defenetly can spend more than 3 plex.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5803 - 2015-11-19 01:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Iowa Banshee wrote:
"A sub is simple access and characters have no value"

Utter rubbish .... -and the character bazaar does not exist to sell these worthless toons

Or is the time invested in them of value
Who said characters have no value? I only said that the sub value is not the same. So yeah, it is utter rubbish, but it originated from you, not me.

Edit: And if we really want to get into it, the cost is just as much if not more derivative of skill choices and availability than raw SP, thus meaning the sub length is only a single factor capable of being overridden by poor or unfocused placement.

And guess what factors still get maintained between diminishing returns and the basic ways skills work.

Edit 2: Taking this further, even in you did want to consider character trade a time equivalence, we're still trading that same time, thus even arguing "time is a must and that makes the Bazaar ok" doesn't create a difference between that and this, save that now you get to create your own identity with it and old players can't liquidate bad rep, both positives to me.
SS Donaldson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5804 - 2015-11-19 04:12:44 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
SS Donaldson wrote:
I am shocked by all the negative responses, and everyone's skewed perception on what pay to win would actually look like in this game. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.

As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have. If they started selling aurum only ships and modules at like, meta lvl 24 with special ammunition only available in the New Edan Store. THAT would be pay to win, and that i would not be able to stand by.

I hope this feature does make its way into the game, I am excited for it!


Doesn't matter how rich or smart a person holding scissors is, rock still wins


""It's a game based on the **** your flying""

Take that 20million SP alt: Get out a Credit Card and spend some $$ - Then buy the Skill Points that at present can only gain through time investment.

I have a Gold Credit Card & can afford to pay for my character to be able to fly a Carrier -
You only have a Blue Credit Card & can only afford the SP to get your pilot into a Cruiser -

I'm rich and bought a ROCK - good luck with only being able to afford the Scissors




Theres always a counter. even to your massive carrier, ****** paper will still beat your gold plated rock
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#5805 - 2015-11-19 19:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Phoenix
SS Donaldson wrote:
.................. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.

As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have.




So, on Monday you consolidate all you SP into one char so you can fly a super, Tuesday consolidate it all so you can go fly a BLOPS BS at Lvl 5, Wednesday we can be a market tycoon........yep, this will be healthy for the game.Roll

As i said in an earlier post, you've made your training decisions they should be permenant, thats life. Next you will be saying 'Oh, i studdied the wrong course at university.......can i exchange my diploma for another subject if i just pay the admin fees?'
Answer: No, go study another subject and earn it.

And as for your comment of ' .......this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have'...you must be the sort of person who thinks they can fly a carrier because you can sit in it.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5806 - 2015-11-19 20:01:42 UTC
I think with the distinct lack of communication back from anyone it was more of a PR exercise than seeking feedback. Does bring up a few questions though. The player base is slowly but surely shrinking and there is a lot of negativity towards this, then after the initial furor of TSP's has come and gone what happens if a lot like me ( 8 accounts with quite a few characters ) have no intention of parting with any what so ever. If they dry up or become as rare as rocking horse crap where is there new revenue stream gone ?

Will they then start to float some on the market, say its not worked and go to selling them directly anyway. For this to work they've got to have a lot willing to part with them in the first place and seeing as the vet's are in the best position on this they screw them over and give them the least return on a personalization stand point.

For a game that's been true to it's value's and had a loyal base of player's, Its those now who are being looked on to shed there investment, even at a loss and not even be given the chance to be afforded the same benefit as a sub 50 million player, Looking at it that way it may force the farming aspect more and its still bought another RMT into the game. So with all that going on and the prioritizing of a more monetary induced playstyle where has the prestige gone. There's certainly nothing unique about a game thats following in the foot steps of countless other hasbeen's

Would be fun if the people that did object to them being introduced refused to use them, If just to see what price levels they hit if they started to dry up P

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5807 - 2015-11-19 20:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Tau Phoenix wrote:

As i said in an earlier post, you've made your training decisions they should be permenant, thats life. Next you will be saying 'Oh, i studdied the wrong course at university.......can i exchange my diploma for another subject if i just pay the admin fees?'
Answer: No, go study another subject and earn it.

Power of analogy come to me!
It's Sci-fi game, bro. There is all kinds of things which messing up with your brain. Maybe in the future any piece of knowledge would be looks like toster that could be traded.
Tau Phoenix wrote:
...you must be the sort of person who thinks they can fly a carrier because you can sit in it.

You must be the sort of person who building unpleasant theories about others.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5808 - 2015-11-19 21:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tau Phoenix wrote:
So, on Monday you consolidate all you SP into one char so you can fly a super, Tuesday consolidate it all so you can go fly a BLOPS BS at Lvl 5, Wednesday we can be a market tycoon........yep, this will be healthy for the game.Roll

As i said in an earlier post, you've made your training decisions they should be permenant, thats life. Next you will be saying 'Oh, i studdied the wrong course at university.......can i exchange my diploma for another subject if i just pay the admin fees?'
Answer: No, go study another subject and earn it.

And as for your comment of ' .......this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have'...you must be the sort of person who thinks they can fly a carrier because you can sit in it.
On Monday, he would have consumed 100mill SP for that super, probably much more if he wanted to do anything with it. Tuesday? Another 20 mill if the only think he lacked was the Black-ops skill, more if he needed anything else. Wednesday, depending on your definition of market tycoon, up to a few tens of millions more SP.

So who are these people willing to sacrifice hundreds on millions of SP in capable characters for tens of millions in return? When you can only do it once every 5 years of maintaining a sub, how could it possibly be a widespread or often repeated practice?

I have a collective ~460mill SP, but there's no rearrangement that makes anywhere near good sense. I could put it all in a new toon to keep efficiency up to 5 mill, take a (personally unacceptable) loss of 20% to 50mill, then tank it from there, and for what? People that have these characters already have caps/supers/T2/T3 or are relatively short trains from it. I'm willing to bet none of them, having taken years to create their characters, are going to eagerly strip them down for under a day of training per week invested.
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5809 - 2015-11-19 22:34:39 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:

The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage

Now your point is a litle bit clearer but I still don't get it. How anyone might care about "SP advantage"? There is a lot of people who already have that advantage over you and you can't do anything about exept buying a new toon. Does it bother you? Or you bother about "person with the deepest pockets" who at the same time your personal enemy?
Iowa Banshee wrote:

Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.

"Person with the deepest pockets" don't care about alts, source of SP, ect. He could just buy toon from bazaar right now if he want to have "advantage " over you personally.


When it comes to Skill Points: At present there is a limit on the amount of RL cash (or PLEX which is RL cash by proxy) that can be spent on a single account.

*I pay my subs $12
*I buy 2 dual training certificates (a form of P2W)

I could pay 2 PLEX or $30 to replace one of my alts - BUT - it is just a replacement & SP gain remains constrained by the subscription/dual training mechanic.


This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training.

Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT
(market availability withstanding)

If you take away this constraint the game becomes pure PAY to WIN


"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "

CCP Hellmar
2011-10-05
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
#5810 - 2015-11-19 22:52:08 UTC  |  Edited by: A Ingus
Levi Belvar wrote:
I think with the distinct lack of communication back from anyone it was more of a PR exercise than seeking feedback. Does bring up a few questions though. The player base is slowly but surely shrinking and there is a lot of negativity towards this, then after the initial furor of TSP's has come and gone what happens if a lot like me ( 8 accounts with quite a few characters ) have no intention of parting with any what so ever. If they dry up or become as rare as rocking horse crap where is there new revenue stream gone ?

Will they then start to float some on the market, say its not worked and go to selling them directly anyway. For this to work they've got to have a lot willing to part with them in the first place and seeing as the vet's are in the best position on this they screw them over and give them the least return on a personalization stand point.

For a game that's been true to it's value's and had a loyal base of player's, Its those now who are being looked on to shed there investment, even at a loss and not even be given the chance to be afforded the same benefit as a sub 50 million player, Looking at it that way it may force the farming aspect more and its still bought another RMT into the game. So with all that going on and the prioritizing of a more monetary induced playstyle where has the prestige gone. There's certainly nothing unique about a game thats following in the foot steps of countless other hasbeen's

Would be fun if the people that did object to them being introduced refused to use them, If just to see what price levels they hit if they started to dry up P

Pretty much my feeling on the matter. The decision has already been made. And, just look at this thread. There will be a few buyers. Not as many as CCP hopes I would guess. And it wont benefit new players more than established players looking to shift sp from one alt to another. In fact it might turn off new players that don't appreciate sinking money into their characters after already paying a sub.

Just another camel nose with the humps soon to follow. The subscription model will die along with the time based skill system. For a while the changes have smacked of desperate fotm chasing attempts to avoid the effects of shrinking numbers of players. This is entirely the wrong thing. They should stand proud of the uniqueness, slim down, and wait for the world to turn. But they wont.

I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die. Which looks to be, soon.P

Edit: I have been playing for almost a decade. A long time to be humping the same game anyway. Especially when it morphs into a crack whore. Lol
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5811 - 2015-11-19 22:53:27 UTC
Suede wrote:

"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "

CCP Hellmar
2011-10-05

Would be unfair if CCP directly selling SP but they won't Any who want to buy SP must make a deal with another player who finds that deal fair. If you don't think this is a fair deal than don't sell SP but it doesn't mean that others thinks as you do.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5812 - 2015-11-19 23:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
A Ingus wrote:
Pretty much my feeling on the matter. The decision has already been made. And, just look at this thread. There will be a few buyers. Not as many as CCP hopes I would guess. And it wont benefit new players more than established players looking to shift sp from one alt to another. In fact it might turn off new players that don't appreciate sinking money into their characters after already paying a sub.

Just another camel nose with the humps soon to follow. The subscription model will die along with the time based skill system. For a while the changes have smacked of desperate fotm chasing attempts to avoid the effects of shrinking numbers of players. This is entirely the wrong thing. They should stand proud of the uniqueness, slim down, and wait for the world to turn. But they wont.

I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die. Which looks to be, soon.P
The more I read some of the posts against this, the more I wonder if I'm alone in thinking trading a few years of training for a few months is a bad idea. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the vets in this game, looking at a 20%-90% loss, won't exactly be willing to sacrifice the convenience on multiple capable characters for a fraction of the return.

That's before even looking at any additional cost, but then the lack of benefit means there will be no such cost.

Then again, maybe I am the only one who sees it like this.

The funny thing is that this whole thing seems to have gone out of it's way to avoid direct sale of SP or anything related to it (moreso even than dual training certs), but we're still saying it's an inevitability alongside the death of the sub model. That's odd to me though, why would you set up players as the source if you actually wanted to do it yourself? Why dilute the real money revenue from it with in game isk while at the same time making every SP in the game a competing source of your product?

Further, why would you ever think about getting rid of the skill system since it's a strong driver for revenue with progress, and possibly soon in game isk, tied to it? It doesn't make sense for a profit seeking entity.

Then again that could just be my perspective again.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5813 - 2015-11-20 01:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
A Ingus wrote:

I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away

Actually it's quite decent idea. SP need to be a thing which could be forgotten at rate X sp/h if you didn't log in to the game for a couple of days. Maybe then some vets will realise how to be a low SP player or how to be loyal one.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5814 - 2015-11-20 08:22:16 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
A Ingus wrote:

I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away

Actually it's quite decent idea. SP need to be a thing which could be forgotten at rate X sp/h if you didn't log in to the game for a couple of days. Maybe then some vets will realise how to be a low SP player or how to be loyal one.

You really have a strange view General Lootit, Some vets may have started out with a few more skill points than you, others alot less. There was the training of learning skills that was mandatory back then and there advanced versions, there was far less todo initially, nowhere near the ships you have today. Trying to mission and PVP whilst the server was up and down like a pro's draws. As the game stands today its fairly polished, downtime is about 10 minutes patches don't take much more than an hour or two, players used to dread patches, you never knew when it was going to come back up.

Loyalty was sticking with a game that was like you were playing a beta for the first 4 or 5 years it was running and still with it today, spending the first 8 weeks juggling a few skills in between training learning skills up, Not whining that your a lowly new guy who cant fly a cap within a month so give me skill points.

I agree with anyone that says the attribs are bogus, remove them so all skills can be trained without the need for months of planned training cues, Hell even speed everything up 20% to 30%. but if you have nothing to aim for, learning by advancing to the next class what will keep you playing for any length of time.

We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Imana Juok
Fabritech Engineering
Spectrum Alliance
#5815 - 2015-11-20 09:29:05 UTC
I'm just going to quit eve if CCP allows players to buy skill points. Idk why i spent so many years training if someone can shortcut his way to the same SP.
Players spent crazy amounts of isk on implants trying to max out their SP training over the years so new guys can just flat out buy their skill points??? I know we have to do something to ease the pain of new players but this will drive away old players that grinded it out and massively invested in their characters. This decision goes against everything that eve stood for. Welcome to the pay to win era???
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5816 - 2015-11-20 13:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
A Ingus wrote:
Pretty much my feeling on the matter. The decision has already been made. And, just look at this thread. There will be a few buyers. Not as many as CCP hopes I would guess. And it wont benefit new players more than established players looking to shift sp from one alt to another. In fact it might turn off new players that don't appreciate sinking money into their characters after already paying a sub.

Just another camel nose with the humps soon to follow. The subscription model will die along with the time based skill system. For a while the changes have smacked of desperate fotm chasing attempts to avoid the effects of shrinking numbers of players. This is entirely the wrong thing. They should stand proud of the uniqueness, slim down, and wait for the world to turn. But they wont.

I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die. Which looks to be, soon.P
The more I read some of the posts against this, the more I wonder if I'm alone in thinking trading a few years of training for a few months is a bad idea. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the vets in this game, looking at a 20%-90% loss, won't exactly be willing to sacrifice the convenience on multiple capable characters for a fraction of the return.

That's before even looking at any additional cost, but then the lack of benefit means there will be no such cost.

Then again, maybe I am the only one who sees it like this.

The funny thing is that this whole thing seems to have gone out of it's way to avoid direct sale of SP or anything related to it (more so even than dual training certs), but we're still saying it's an inevitability alongside the death of the sub model. That's odd to me though, why would you set up players as the source if you actually wanted to do it yourself? Why dilute the real money revenue from it with in game isk while at the same time making every SP in the game a competing source of your product?

Further, why would you ever think about getting rid of the skill system since it's a strong driver for revenue with progress, and possibly soon in game isk, tied to it? It doesn't make sense for a profit seeking entity.

Then again that could just be my perspective again.

I don't think your understanding what some are trying to say either, I have a character i could quite easily remove 26 or so million sp's from. Of those 26m i would like to reassign 7m into something else on the same character but can't because on removing them to me they only become 50k packets. I don't need isk i don't need to strip any toon down for money, so if i can't reallocate my 7 million i sure as hell ain't gonna part with all the rest to give someone else the benefit of them - Your on about bitter vet's all the time but screwing them over for a sub 50m player sure ain't going to help this. This Personalization is flawed to anyone above 50m skill points, like i've said before once you turn the backbone of the game into a pay2 access system where is there any prestige and uniqueness ??

EDIT
Say they had 2 models of extractors 1 the standard tradeable TSP with it's depreciation scale, then one that was purely for use on the character that it pulled the skill points from with zero loss. A skill realignment model - your still paying extra in some way to do it but without feeling CCP have kicked you in the nuts for being so loyal.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5817 - 2015-11-20 13:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:

Loyalty was

Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences.
Levi Belvar wrote:

We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.

They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5818 - 2015-11-20 14:15:14 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Loyalty was

Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences.
Levi Belvar wrote:

We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.

They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP.

Then why dont you just go and **** off and play the same old generic MMO your used to and stop trying to poison this one.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5819 - 2015-11-20 14:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Loyalty was

Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences.
Levi Belvar wrote:

We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.

They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP.

Then why dont you just go and **** off and play the same old generic MMO your used to and stop trying to poison this one.

How rude, mr.bitvet

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5820 - 2015-11-20 14:23:32 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Loyalty was

Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences.
Levi Belvar wrote:

We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.

They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP.

Then why dont you just go and **** off and play the same old generic MMO your used to and stop trying to poison this one.

How rude mr.bitvet

Thats the whole point your just some clueless ignorant newb who wants everything with no effort or time investment, why the dev's want to pander to someone like you is beyond belief .

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”