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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Veraca Darmazaf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5721 - 2015-11-17 00:06:37 UTC
Nubran Pahineh wrote:
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:

The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.

Care to elaborate?


Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser.

Short on isk for the capital? Buy a ton of plex and sell em in game. You could be flying a Titan on your second day of play if you wanted to.

And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.


You feel the effort you made at managing your skill queue will have been wasted if it's made irrelevant to people with money to burn, is that it?
Doddy
Excidium.
#5722 - 2015-11-17 00:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Nubran Pahineh wrote:
Ask yourself why people play hockey. Then ask yourself, would they still play if the rules of the game allowed any player to simply buy as many goals as he could afford?

How about a 100 yard dash where you are allowed to drive a car, if you can afford it? Would you sell any tickets to that?


That is a terrible analogy. What it would actually be would be that if you turned up to a hockey game, but the other players had been allowed to score goals in the game for the last 12 years so long as they paid the organisers. But now the organiser was going to allow you to stump up some rl cash, or better yet some actual talent to get some of those goals if the other players didn't want them any more. Though in truth the game already allowed you to buy a big load of the goals already scored in the same way anyway, so long as you used the older players name.Blink

Not that eve is a) competitive, b) a sport or c) has spectators. So I don't really know where you are coming from.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5723 - 2015-11-17 00:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Nubran Pahineh wrote:

Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser.

1) They already can buy toon from bazaar
2) There is a lot of players who already have capitals and could blap you at anytime you wish. It's sandbox, man.

Nubran Pahineh wrote:

And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.

Yahooo I'm rich. Lol

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Laurew
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5724 - 2015-11-17 03:00:34 UTC
if ccp want to be serious about making the micro transactions work then they need to give us value for money.

the nes store in its current form is just a rip-off, plain and simple. Make the items available much, much cheaper and with a whole lot more variety and i think it will entice people to spend money on AUR.

dedicate a team specifically for the NES store, constantly bring out new things to buy at a great price (paying $20 for a single ship skin is a joke.) and profit.

Bringing in skill trading is a terrible idea if ccp are looking to profit from micro transactions.
Avvy
Doomheim
#5725 - 2015-11-17 06:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Don ZOLA wrote:
[ Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see.


If someone quits over this, the chances are they would have quit sooner or later anyway.

Or they may see it as the last straw, but that would mean they're already unhappy about the direction the game is moving in.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5726 - 2015-11-17 07:23:48 UTC
Doddy wrote:
"Effort"? you paying for a sub in the past is "effort" compared to people paying more money for less sp now? And if you play eve to keep up with people its probably not the game for you anwyway, you can never "keep up" with people who started before you in any case. In fact the only way you could would be if you made some isk and used this proposal. i can see you lack the motivation to do so, but I sure there will be plenty who have it.

False asumption that "new players will catch up". They won't, because of hard cap. Wanna bet the biggest troll here will cry for more when he hit 50 mil? Because "shut up and take my money!". I don't think 50 mil is enough to fly all hulls and using all weapons on T2 level (not to mention support skills etc.).
Laurew wrote:
if ccp want to be serious about making the micro transactions work then they need to give us value for money.

the nes store in its current form is just a rip-off, plain and simple. Make the items available much, much cheaper and with a whole lot more variety and i think it will entice people to spend money on AUR.

dedicate a team specifically for the NES store, constantly bring out new things to buy at a great price (paying $20 for a single ship skin is a joke.) and profit.

Bringing in skill trading is a terrible idea if ccp are looking to profit from micro transactions.

but CCP is happy with NES store, it's a success didn't you read CSM minutes. They want more, that's why SP for $ is proposed. They know their "gaining experience system" is flawed but they want to earn on it. So instead revamp they will introduce "new feature" to help players experience the game, for cash ofc.
General Lootit wrote:
ISD will delete our convisation anyway.

Then stop posting it here, it's getting boring to flag most of your posts as junk.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5727 - 2015-11-17 09:02:16 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
[ Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see.


If someone quits over this, the chances are they would have quit sooner or later anyway.

Or they may see it as the last straw, but that would mean they're already unhappy about the direction the game is moving in.


I do not agree. As this is unprecedented change. I agree some people did quit over some changes in past, but this is the first time game fundamentals are being changed. So people, as paying customers have a new stance with CCP in which they are aware that there is no consistency from CCP side and that anything at all can be changed. And paying customers usually are not in favor of such things, everyone wants to know what they are paying and what to expect from it.

For some it will definitely be the last straw, for some this straw will be enough. And obviously a lot of people do not like the direction the company is going in.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5728 - 2015-11-17 09:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
but CCP is happy with NES store, it's a success didn't you read CSM minutes. They want more, that's why SP for $ is proposed. They know their "gaining experience system" is flawed but they want to earn on it. So instead revamp they will introduce "new feature" to help players experience the game, for cash ofc.
Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.

If you ignore the fact that SP is being market traded, which is a pretty key point, then sure you can call it cash for SP; if you pretend no players have the earning capacity for them, which is impossible else PLEX would cease to function and collapse in price, then you can also make the same statement. Basically if you ignore reality this becomes cash for SP.

What it is you're exchanging cash for is the ability to sell SP for ISK (just like PLEX) or to relocate your own.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5729 - 2015-11-17 09:59:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
but CCP is happy with NES store, it's a success didn't you read CSM minutes. They want more, that's why SP for $ is proposed. They know their "gaining experience system" is flawed but they want to earn on it. So instead revamp they will introduce "new feature" to help players experience the game, for cash ofc.
Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.


And for some reason, some people ignore the fact that a person/alliance that has a lot of real life cash, can buy a LOT of PLEX, and with that a LOT of SP, which is pretty much the definition of pay to win.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5730 - 2015-11-17 10:06:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.

You may say that SKINs are for ISK too, then why CCP gets real money for them?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What it is you're exchanging cash for is the ability to sell SP for ISK (just like PLEX) or to relocate your own.

Decide, begining and end of your post are in contradiction. First you wrote it's ISK, then RL cash.
Tiberius please stop with relocating your own skill points statement. It's not going to happen. I've hit 50 mil 2 days ago, relocating SP on my main just stopped to pay off, drawback is too big.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#5731 - 2015-11-17 10:18:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.

Logically this. Bypassing game mechanics is always bad.

I do not endorse this proposition.
Jared Khanar
#5732 - 2015-11-17 10:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Hm just as a question for opinions:

If this really should be perceived only as an enhancement to the character bazaar:

- CB allows you to pay for the transfer of a character with unlimited amounts of sp contained - transfer fee is the same if there are 1m or 200m on the character.
- ST allows you to pay for the transfer of a limited amount of sp + destroying some of these upon injection

If this is designed as an alternative shouldn´t it allow also "unlimited" amounts of sp trades without destruction per payed fee? (The same principle cb follows?) Maybe make it slightly more expensive so theres a choice between "cheap" characters with unwanted skills or the "more expensive" abillity to craft you character carefully?

Isn´t the main difference between cb and sp trading the fact, that this only allows ccp to charge rl money for the transfered amount of sps now, too? (Something they are not able to do now?)

Is this really only an enhancement of trading abilities for the players without the attempt to additionally cash in on something "new"?

Does this new rl payment for specific amounts of sp vanish because players are able to trade them on the market after ccp has obtained money?

EDIT:

current situation: 1 SP = ccp gets payed a fraction of the sub payment (cb transfers do not change this)
then: 1 SP = ccp gets payed a fraction of the sub payment + a fraction of sp trading payment

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#5733 - 2015-11-17 11:42:38 UTC
Doddy wrote:
It is not me who is thick, it is you who have a four year olds understanding of value. Why would somebody sell something that has cost them 300mil for less than 300mil? Obviously because they don't want/need it any more and somebody who does want it will only give them less than 300 mil for it. Are you really that dumb? Why would anyone not sell it? 10 million unused SP, or 2.5 billion isk, hmm I wonder which is more usefull to all non idiots playing the game.

I suppose you think all unwanted items in the world are sold only for their original cost price .....Roll

Not that the sp cost them that in the first place, in addition to 1 chars months training time a months sub also gives access to the game for up to 3 different chars, the only way to gain that access. A plex does not equal 1 months sp. A plex equals 1 months access to the game, and 1 months sp. But then so does a directly paid sub. So somebody who paid for a years sub has only paid the value of 6 plex for a years access to the game and a years skill training. So even if they insist on "getting their money back " as it were and discounted access to the game, they still value that SP at half your plex -> SP value. Given most people value access to the game the potential of SP is even lower. Regardless how much was paid for it however useless SP is useless, and value is always, always, always what somebody is willing to pay.

Before reading this thread I would happily have taken 100 mil isk (net) for a million of my unwanted SP, hell even less if somebody would take it all. If t is useless to me I will take what I can get for it, and so will all normal people not fixated on entirely made up ideas of "value".

@ Levi Belvar
The more eloquent phrase for the point your trying to make is Seigniorage
The plex equalling a gold bar and Isk equalling paper currency / coinage.

Do not misinterpret someones seeming ignorance, lack of understanding or wall of text as anything other than misdirection. When at a time where there are great fortunes to be made at the customers lack of true value in an object. Large corporations and alliances are naturally going to be backing this 100% but decrying it's true worth to reap the values of buying low.
@ Doddy
Doddy wrote:
I suppose you think all unwanted items in the world are sold only for their original cost price .....Roll

If it was made of gold, naturally.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5734 - 2015-11-17 15:20:12 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Wanna bet the biggest troll here will cry for more when he hit 50 mil?

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I've hit 50 mil 2 days ago, relocating SP on my main just stopped to pay off, drawback is too big.

It's explains everything you wrote. Don't cry, you make me feel sad too

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5735 - 2015-11-17 17:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vahligmarr
...I don't think you got my "loyality point" ;)

+ let your "math" aside, the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive.

- a paywal in a subscription based game!

And who guarantees this will be last step, there will be more "game changing sweeties" in the AUR store soon, which are not obtainable otherwise right now. More "free to play" stuff for real money on top of your subscription fee.... how can I accept that?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5736 - 2015-11-17 17:21:41 UTC
Vahligmarr wrote:

+ let your "math" aside, the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive, a paywal in a subscription based game!

If you want to be competitive than compete with isk. Anyway it's your problem, not mine.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5737 - 2015-11-17 21:13:30 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.

You may say that SKINs are for ISK too, then why CCP gets real money for them?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What it is you're exchanging cash for is the ability to sell SP for ISK (just like PLEX) or to relocate your own.

Decide, begining and end of your post are in contradiction. First you wrote it's ISK, then RL cash.
Tiberius please stop with relocating your own skill points statement. It's not going to happen. I've hit 50 mil 2 days ago, relocating SP on my main just stopped to pay off, drawback is too big.
There is no contradiction.

There is only 1 avenue to purchase SP. Isk.

That one can use money to get isk is no more relevant here than it is for any other thing sold for isk in game.

That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash.

Further, that you aren't happy with the exchange rate for reallocating SP doesn't mean that's a universal. Your situation and perception of value are limited to a single person.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5738 - 2015-11-17 21:19:40 UTC
Vahligmarr wrote:
...I don't think you got my "loyality point" ;)

+ let your "math" aside, the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive.

- a paywal in a subscription based game!

And who guarantees this will be last step, there will be more "game changing sweeties" in the AUR store soon, which are not obtainable otherwise right now. More "free to play" stuff for real money on top of your subscription fee.... how can I accept that?
No, skills being to lvl 5 is not a huge advantage, it's a huge investment for the same amount of advantage as any other level of the same skill. Lvl 4 training is comparatively trivial and offers 80% on any advantage conveyed by the skill. The only time lvl 5 skills have significant meaning is when they are prerequisites, and if you want to call that a paywall, fine. Just realize that paywall has been in place since day one combined with a mandatory wait period and the only argument here is that the wait period somehow makes the paywall better.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5739 - 2015-11-17 21:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash.
To sell an item requires a seller and buyer to complete a transaction.

Transaction . An agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services or financial recompense.

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5740 - 2015-11-17 21:56:37 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.

Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts