These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5521 - 2015-11-10 07:14:31 UTC
I have removed some troll/off-topic/disrespectful posts and those quoting them.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5522 - 2015-11-10 07:26:53 UTC

Hey Tyberius, good to hook up with you again.



Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What is being disputed is that:

a) The only way to obtain this advantage should be through tenure
b) Once conveyed they should be immutable, even if loss would be involved otherwise
c) Trading these advantages should require whole character transfers and the significant investment this entails
d) These advantages are fair to characterize as "winning" and
e) The ability to sell or trade SP between players for in game currency is therefore fair to characterize as pay to win


As yours is not the incumbent mechanic, it's up to you to argue why you think the fundamental process of the game should be turned on its head. I just demonstrated how the stated purpose (ie: helping new players) is actually backwards. It helps experienced players more than new players, and it helps create a wider SP gap instead of narrowing it.



Quote:
I'm not sure the issues with large groups. Those entities are most likely to a) have access to high SP players unless specifically new player oriented and b) be able to mitigate SP inefficiencies through numbers, reducing the noteworthiness of any individuals performance gains.

The issue is simply this.

1. Big groups do not today hand out free characters to their newbros.
2. Big groups will hand out free SP to their newbros.

Fleet comps, flexibility, tighter fits, meta modules, you name it. All of these increase the gap between a successful group and an unsuccessful one. This mechanism favors the wealthy. Big groups are wealthy.



Quote:
The statement that SP isn't winning, when in the face of the even more disingenuous "this is P2W" argument is really just a less wordy version of "conveying an advantage created by players and traded between them on their terms doesn't constitute a pay for advantage from CCP equivalency or insurmountable barrier for those that chose or have chosen to train normally"

Pay to win means there is nothing a person without IRL riches can do to achieve the same thing as an IRL rich person.

There is a pay to win mechanism existent today, the Character Bazaar. But Character Bazaar is a necessary evil to prevent RMT via un-preventable account transfers if Character Bazaar didn't exist.

SP Trading not only does not prevent RMT, it introduces a new RMT mechanism untraceable by CCP's current infrastructure (hey, please prove me wrong but I've yet to hear back on this). Why would you introduce a pay to win mechanism if it's not there to prevent RMT?


Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5523 - 2015-11-10 07:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Sibyyl wrote:
Hey Tyberius, good to hook up with you again.
Indeed.

Quote:
As yours is not the incumbent mechanic, it's up to you to argue why you think the fundamental process of the game should be turned on its head. I just demonstrated how the stated purpose (ie: helping new players) is actually backwards. It helps experienced players more than new players, and it helps create a wider SP gap instead of narrowing it.
Well, actually, you demonstrated one way in which it did help new players. Recruitment benefits. Or more generally, the desire for older players to use their resources to help new players for mutual gain. Further, even that aside the proposed means puts gaining SP in a much more new player friendly package in terms of obtainability through cost (though I'd granulate further) and retaining of the players personally crafted identity.

This also builds actual attachment to reputation for old and new players rather than just seeking the most capable bundle of SP or liquidating past indiscretions for isk.

Quote:
The issue is simply this.

1. Big groups do not today hand out free characters to their newbros.
2. Big groups will hand out free SP to their newbros.

Fleet comps, flexibility, tighter fits, meta modules, you name it. All of these increase the gap between a successful group and an unsuccessful one. This mechanism favors the wealthy. Big groups are wealthy.
As stated above, that's actually a new player benefit. Performance wise all of that gets minimized in the intended use case for large groups as stated in the prior post. But also, it creates another incentive for infiltration and other forms of insidious gameplay.

Quote:
Pay to win means there is nothing a person without IRL riches can do to achieve the same thing as an IRL rich person.

There is a pay to win mechanism existent today, the Character Bazaar. But Character Bazaar is a necessary evil to prevent RMT via un-preventable account transfers if Character Bazaar didn't exist.

SP Trading not only does not prevent RMT, it introduces a new RMT mechanism untraceable by CCP's current infrastructure (hey, please prove me wrong but I've yet to hear back on this). Why would you introduce a pay to win mechanism if it's not there to prevent RMT?
This is somewhat of a half truth, most will expend RL currency to purchase characters at the Bazaar, but that isn't necessary, and is mostly driven by the high cost of entry.

When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP).

Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5524 - 2015-11-10 11:13:44 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk?


That's not the point. the point is that it introduces yet another lure for people to use RMT for. Isk isn't really an issue for newer players, specially not ones in larger entities, it's skillpoints. Think of the hundreds and thousands of newbros, all lining up willing to dig deep for more skillpoints.

It's a great setup: you lure newbies into your alliance, then tell them they'd be more awesome if only they could fly that specific ship/fit and casually drop the option of buying SP from you. There's a reason Goons want this.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5525 - 2015-11-10 13:03:33 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk?


That's not the point. the point is that it introduces yet another lure for people to use RMT for. Isk isn't really an issue for newer players, specially not ones in larger entities, it's skillpoints. Think of the hundreds and thousands of newbros, all lining up willing to dig deep for more skillpoints.

It's a great setup: you lure newbies into your alliance, then tell them they'd be more awesome if only they could fly that specific ship/fit and casually drop the option of buying SP from you. There's a reason Goons want this.

There wouldn't be any lure for RMT if it was done by CCP, make it so it was for account use only and non market traded. Then it benefits those who want to pay2progress, not the blobs who can control it for there own mega corps.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5526 - 2015-11-10 16:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:

For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss
-- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit


At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss


Edit:
To help newbies make T1 ships exempt
Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying
Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5527 - 2015-11-10 16:56:20 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:

For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss
-- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit


At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss.

Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5528 - 2015-11-10 16:57:08 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:

For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss
-- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit


At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss.

Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.


I did an Edit:
To help newbies make T1 ships exempt
Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying
Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5529 - 2015-11-10 17:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:

For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss
-- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit


At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss.

Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.


I did an Edit:
To help newbies make T1 ships exempt
Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying
Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players


Most ganks newbies experience would be on T1 ships - mining retrievers - if they were exempt no problem

As for the PVP - most are not newbies and..... You can always buy more SP - because buying SP is what TSP is all about or do you think it should be just profit & gain without the possibility of loss?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5530 - 2015-11-10 17:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:

For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss
-- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit


At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss.

Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.


I did an Edit:
To help newbies make T1 ships exempt
Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying
Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players


Most ganks newbies experience would be on T1 ships - mining retrievers - if they were exempt no problem

As for the PVP - most are not newbies and..... You can always buy more SP - because buying SP is what TSP is all about or do you think it should be just profit & gain without the possibility of loss?

I dont want it at all, if it's for the "Greater good" CCP "New player" Then i would rather have CCP provide it as a MT than all this other BS thats possible
In fact i'd go as far to say i would fully support CCP in doing it now over the whole TSP garbage.
0-5m 500k
5-10 450k
10-20 400k
20-50 300k
50+ 50k
If they think that having skill points is such a good advantage then go for it. Got to take into account loyalty over pay to advance so just sell the packs for a dollar amount. $6.00 per pack no in game selling and not for in game currency either. Will not effect anything within the game then - Saves all this cloak and dagger shite of personalization and just get it out there like it is.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5531 - 2015-11-10 17:39:27 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:

For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss
-- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit


At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss.

Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.


I did an Edit:
To help newbies make T1 ships exempt
Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying
Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players


Most ganks newbies experience would be on T1 ships - mining retrievers - if they were exempt no problem

As for the PVP - most are not newbies and..... You can always buy more SP - because buying SP is what TSP is all about or do you think it should be just profit & gain without the possibility of loss?

I dont want it at all, if it's for the "Greater good" CCP "New player" Then i would rather have CCP provide it as a MT than all this other BS thats possible


I don't really want it either but if I have to have it - I want it to follow the isk-risk paradigm and introduce SP loss to balance SP gain
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5532 - 2015-11-10 17:47:52 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I don't really want it either but if I have to have it - I want it to follow the isk-risk paradigm and introduce SP loss to balance SP gain

sorry did an edit above, you missed Oops

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5533 - 2015-11-10 17:52:02 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:



At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss


Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer...
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5534 - 2015-11-10 17:57:25 UTC
Amanda Orion wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:



At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss


Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer...


That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5535 - 2015-11-10 18:08:14 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:



At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss


Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer...


That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?

Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5536 - 2015-11-10 18:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:



At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss


Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer...


That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?

Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason.


I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots.

If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP

It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5537 - 2015-11-10 18:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Gregor Parud wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk?
That's not the point. the point is that it introduces yet another lure for people to use RMT for. Isk isn't really an issue for newer players, specially not ones in larger entities, it's skillpoints. Think of the hundreds and thousands of newbros, all lining up willing to dig deep for more skillpoints.

It's a great setup: you lure newbies into your alliance, then tell them they'd be more awesome if only they could fly that specific ship/fit and casually drop the option of buying SP from you. There's a reason Goons want this.
My response to this is already just above what you quoted:

"When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP)."

Edit: The logic presented for this being an RMT lure makes less sense the more I think about it. Firstly you state this presents a lure for RMT that doesn't exists due to isk not being a factor for new players. This ignores the pretty big fact that the resource in question will be visible on the market and have a direct association with isk. The desire for SP will, through that association be very much a desire for isk, hence " isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways".

Second, the concern for RMT that was addressed by the Bazaar in the first place was a complete lack of a legitimate market. That situation will never have the chance to exist with packets as proposed.

And yeah, there is a reason Goons want this, deep in game pockets that can take advantage of it plentifully without ever having to even think about breaking the EULA.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5538 - 2015-11-10 18:31:53 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:



At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss
-- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss


Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer...


That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?

Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason.


I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots.

If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP

It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss

As i stated previously you want to penalize the whole game, for a small minority that choose and accept the risks of T3 as a balance. Thats not going forward thats taking 10 steps backwards.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5539 - 2015-11-10 18:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:


That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?

Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason.


I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots.

If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP

It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss

As i stated previously you want to penalize the whole game, for a small minority that choose and accept the risks of T3 as a balance. Thats not going forward thats taking 10 steps backwards.


Not to penalize but to balance and NOT for the sake of T3 pilots but because TSP is all gain and no loss

EDIT - Did you ever think that the introduction of T3's with SP loss may have been a step forward by CCP...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5540 - 2015-11-10 18:44:33 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
I dont want it at all, if it's for the "Greater good" CCP "New player" Then i would rather have CCP provide it as a MT than all this other BS thats possible
In fact i'd go as far to say i would fully support CCP in doing it now over the whole TSP garbage.
0-5m 500k
5-10 450k
10-20 400k
20-50 300k
50+ 50k
If they think that having skill points is such a good advantage then go for it. Got to take into account loyalty over pay to advance so just sell the packs for a dollar amount. $6.00 per pack no in game selling and not for in game currency either. Will not effect anything within the game then - Saves all this cloak and dagger shite of personalization and just get it out there like it is.
This method doesn't actually do anything you state it will.

It:

a) Does affect the game through giving the advantage of SP
b) Doesn't reward loyalty in any way (whereas the current method rewards training gained through loyalty by making it a comobity)
c) Actually pushes this into more objectionable territory than any other MT currently in game by only being obtainable via cash
d) IIs only actually limited by only willingness to spend currency with no logical limits or supply constraints (unlike the op)
e) Offers no way to match with in game effort
f) Doesn't interact with gameplay
g) Cannot be interfered with for the same reasons

It's objectively worse in every way except the ill defined and possibility of being an RMT vector, which is already cared for by PLEX and the fact that these are still much closer to obtainability that full characters.