These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#5321 - 2015-11-04 02:28:06 UTC
Magnus Roden wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Magnus Roden wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Stalking Mantis wrote:
Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah.
They've been doing that since the character bazaar was created, thus charging extra cash for the transfer of SP is at this point just as much a core mechanic, just with a more prohibitive price point. But I guess we're ok with it so long as the entry point is several plex rather than a fraction of one.
No the character bazaar does NOT break the "rules", if you think it does and this is thus the same then you're lacking insight, or you're just avoiding the issue on purpose.
There is no issue to avoid precisely because of the bazaar unless you think character level investment is only meaningful when it's just time and trading SP needs a significant entry point.

Fact of the matter is trading identities trivializes consequence rather than enforcing it as you literally get paid as a seller in the bazaar to liquidate your reputation. It's just legitimized alt rolling that bypasses the normal consequence of doing so, but we're apparently fine with it since someone else is still holding the bag when the sale is done.

That people say it's fine because of reputation is completely backwards, and that's the closest thing to a defense of a difference that people have presented. And even then it's easily trivialized with existing social connections.

So in the end the result is the same, we're fine with paying real cash for SP so long as the investment is high and the bad rep from old players hurts new ones.


That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.

I'm sure you can understand this basic thing, it really isn't too difficult to comprehend.


Apparently it is either to difficult for some (CCP included) to comprehend this or they don't want to comprehend it for selfish reasonings.
Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
#5322 - 2015-11-04 03:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Magnus Roden
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Magnus Roden wrote:
That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.

I'm sure you can understand this basic thing, it really isn't too difficult to comprehend.
And the trade of SP will also abide by the time invested to create SP, as it can only be made available by those willing to do so at the rate they can generate it. It still adheres to the seller's invested time.

That the seller can also erase consequence and get paid for it doesn't rationally make a good argument though. It's got nothing to do with not understanding, but rather everything to do with understanding that character reputation isn't a consistent consequence; it diminishes completely for older players with social connections in game.

So we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly. That's not something I can agree with.



Don't be dumb. You can create a character a day old with 50 mil SP, its SP is not in line with its age. And yes a character's age, skill choices, name choice etc etc still remains and applies when it's sold. It is not the same at all.

Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5323 - 2015-11-04 07:01:54 UTC
Magnus Roden wrote:
Don't be dumb. You can create a character a day old with 50 mil SP, its SP is not in line with its age. And yes a character's age, skill choices, name choice etc etc still remains and applies when it's sold. It is not the same at all.
Creating day old characters with any amount of SP is a non-issue. Fact is that SP came from somewhere, and that somewhere is characters that trained that SP over time. It's not created without seller time investment.

Beyond that you haven't actually said anything here that disagrees with anything I stated. For some reason everyone is philosophically married to a system that serves vets in several ways including consequence avoidance (selling burnt alts over building a lasting, personalized identity), and removing elements of predictability regarding skills of young characters. This is just vet self service.

Further having new players with unskilled characters who may not understand this fully or how to investigate a character being the primary buyers, as confirmed by CCP, doesn't help the situation either. We're apparently married to a sense of "consequence" that makes no reasonable sense to maintain since the player isn't the same, while freeing up a character slot for more consequence free corp theft and awoxing for the actual guilty party.

Meanwhile for vets, since their already socially connected and SP waste carries no penalty anymore, buying SP has no consequence whatsoever.

So as stated, we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5324 - 2015-11-04 08:32:27 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Magnus Roden wrote:
Don't be dumb. You can create a character a day old with 50 mil SP, its SP is not in line with its age. And yes a character's age, skill choices, name choice etc etc still remains and applies when it's sold. It is not the same at all.
Creating day old characters with any amount of SP is a non-issue. Fact is that SP came from somewhere, and that somewhere is characters that trained that SP over time. It's not created without seller time investment.

Beyond that you haven't actually said anything here that disagrees with anything I stated. For some reason everyone is philosophically married to a system that serves vets in several ways including consequence avoidance (selling burnt alts over building a lasting, personalized identity), and removing elements of predictability regarding skills of young characters. This is just vet self service.

Further having new players with unskilled characters who may not understand this fully or how to investigate a character being the primary buyers, as confirmed by CCP, doesn't help the situation either. We're apparently married to a sense of "consequence" that makes no reasonable sense to maintain since the player isn't the same, while freeing up a character slot for more consequence free corp theft and awoxing for the actual guilty party.

Meanwhile for vets, since their already socially connected and SP waste carries no penalty anymore, buying SP has no consequence whatsoever.

So as stated, we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly.

What you can't seem to grasp though is the past 12 years the fundamental principal of the game has been time and effort equal progression at no point in its history could you take a one day old character and give it 4 years of perfect training instantly, didn't matter how in game rich in real life rich it was not possible.

If this was being done to help create a new influx of players they could of done it so many other ways, Balanced learning ,no attribs and all set 50% higher, various boosting implants that make it even faster, missions or NPE awarding skillpoints character creation giving your first slot more skillpoints and to be shown how to use them for pvp / pve / ind / mining / scanning that is endless, but nooo they put this garbage up about Personalization which its not, and not had the common courtesy of even replying to a single post. Really does show how connected to the player base they've become.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5325 - 2015-11-04 09:30:16 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5326 - 2015-11-04 09:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Amanda Orion wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.

You will find that people choose to see it the same if it benefits their in game goals and not for anything to do with principle / fundamental issues e.g. i want it now, this way i can get it now. short term greed doesn't make for longevity though.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5327 - 2015-11-04 11:30:19 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

You will find that people choose to see it the same if it benefits their in game goals and not for anything to do with principle / fundamental issues e.g. i want it now, this way i can get it now. short term greed doesn't make for longevity though.


So, in summary, people are a problem...

:)
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5328 - 2015-11-04 12:16:53 UTC
Amanda Orion wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

You will find that people choose to see it the same if it benefits their in game goals and not for anything to do with principle / fundamental issues e.g. i want it now, this way i can get it now. short term greed doesn't make for longevity though.


So, in summary, people are a problem...

:)

People yes, the player base no. If you dangle a carrot - There's always an ass willing to follow it regardless of where it leads him.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Thonys Visser
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5329 - 2015-11-04 13:28:15 UTC
Well .....you have to see the big picture here

Its how the system works

just like raising taXes (if there is a uninvestigated area to explore and make a profit out of it)

the pb who has the cash will grind more skills to there benefit
the poor becomes poorer (and grind nothing)

its just a way for ccp to grind there income

and its just a way to look at it

Greetings you lovely ccp and lovely pb people Blink


ps :ccp if you want the pb has more skills,.... well give it to them by downgrading level 5 to 14 days ,..or on the the real money side one sub for two months (just a idea ,how to cope with the so called problem)
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#5330 - 2015-11-04 14:02:08 UTC
I just hope CCP give an update with some sort of timetable for when they plan to implement this cancerous feature into Eve before my subs expire.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5331 - 2015-11-04 16:54:26 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
I just hope CCP give an update with some sort of timetable for when they plan to implement this cancerous feature into Eve before my subs expire.


They won't do that until they have calculated how much it will cost them to ignore their paying customers.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5332 - 2015-11-04 17:22:11 UTC
Amanda Orion wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.



I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game.

You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one.

So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5333 - 2015-11-04 18:24:51 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.



I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game.

You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one.

So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills

I couldn't agree more, it would save a lot of in game hassle, got to be easier coding an icon and adding an item in the store - i suggested the same thing about 100 pages ago but then they cant hide behind a personaliztion feature, its just outright pay 2 win/progress Blink

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5334 - 2015-11-04 18:42:07 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

They are. We are speaking about fundamentals here, not some minor changes which are liked or not liked by someone. Changing fundamentals can easily lead your customers to ask themselves if it is worth to invest time and money in something which might be something else in a year or five. How will that affect current player base we will see, but judging from responses here and ingame there will be a lot of unhappy customers...

I'm quite embarrassed about the fact that this is most popular topic on eve-o. It's not what newcomer expecting to see after reading news about new feature like this. BTW I asked in russian thread "Guys, what are your favorite patchs? " And you know what? None for a long time. I went to conclusion that there is no such thing for vet which called "good patch", every changing is bad(even if there is one good change than they could find a bunch of bad ones). And I think reasons for that behavior not in the game but in psychology.


If they read this one they will have the same issue. They come to try themselves in cut throat cruel space and all they see is people whining how hard it is and that they need more isk or more sp (at the same time it was never as easy to make it for new players as it is now)...

And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5335 - 2015-11-04 19:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.

Yeap, it's crucial changing. Like inventing prostetic limbs(remember your sports metaphor about prestige)... Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5336 - 2015-11-04 20:06:35 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
What you can't seem to grasp though is the past 12 years the fundamental principal of the game has been time and effort equal progression at no point in its history could you take a one day old character and give it 4 years of perfect training instantly, didn't matter how in game rich in real life rich it was not possible.

If this was being done to help create a new influx of players they could of done it so many other ways, Balanced learning ,no attribs and all set 50% higher, various boosting implants that make it even faster, missions or NPE awarding skillpoints character creation giving your first slot more skillpoints and to be shown how to use them for pvp / pve / ind / mining / scanning that is endless, but nooo they put this garbage up about Personalization which its not, and not had the common courtesy of even replying to a single post. Really does show how connected to the player base they've become.

Either you didn't read or just ignored parts of the post. The possibility of creating high SP characters that are new was acknowledged, but as stated it's a non-issue, or rather should be. The only function served by maintaining the relationship of SP to age strictly, and mind you only as a determinant of max SP rather than actual SP, is being able to estimate the abilities of younger players. Is that alone a function that needs maintained? If not then all we have are reasons based on feeling and because "it's always been that way."

Does it add value? None that I can find or has been presented. It's been argued that this relationship is currently the case, just not why it's actually good or better than abandoning it.

To the rest:
Balanced learning - This in effect deals with one attribute of the issue, optimal training order, but not the wait itself. That wait is what people are bypassing with purchasing characters. This is effectively not related to the proposal.

Higher attributes - This could actually have some effect, though new players won't have the old training times to compare to. If a goal takes 9 months instead of 12 and still retains the constant "I'll always be behind" mechanism, how much can it help? It's also something that doesn't add to gameplay.

Boosters/Implants - See above and below

Awarding SP for PvE/NPE - This is actually an Idea that many have been against for quite some time. If we warmed up to it now we aren't as married to principle (the divorce of training and grinding that people so love) as we're pretending here.

As far as not replying, they have replied to answer questions. There are 7 dev posts here doing that before the thread descended into a series of accusations and generalizations not worthy of response.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5337 - 2015-11-04 20:11:05 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.



I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game.

You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one.

So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills

I couldn't agree more, it would save a lot of in game hassle, got to be easier coding an icon and adding an item in the store - i suggested the same thing about 100 pages ago but then they cant hide behind a personaliztion feature, its just outright pay 2 win/progress Blink
I can't help but have this feeling that people here don't know what P2W actually means anymore. I buy a character from the Bazaar and that's not P2W because I have to buy it whole, but it becomes P2W the moment I can buy that skillset on my character from the same supplier?

What?
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#5338 - 2015-11-04 20:17:18 UTC
I can't wait for this feature, the sooner the better.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5339 - 2015-11-04 20:33:30 UTC
Quote:

I can't help but have this feeling that people here don't know what P2W actually means anymore. I buy a character from the Bazaar and that's not P2W because I have to buy it whole, but it becomes P2W the moment I can buy that skillset on my character from the same supplier?

What?


I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.

A mega-corp buying the SP packets to make a fleet's Titian / Carrier / whateverrole pilots have perfect V skills and have an edge that just could not exist unless it was paid for.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5340 - 2015-11-04 20:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Iowa Banshee wrote:

I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.

It might sounds rude but... do you know that change should bringing something new into the game? Furthermore implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character is very inefficient thing to do.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts