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Implementing the human psyche into Eve

Author
Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-11-04 01:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurtis Sareen
I get it, you all disagree.
Wolf Lafisques
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-11-04 01:57:53 UTC
You would have a point here if there was a way to actually kill people in Eve. Personally, my conscience would perfectly clear after "killing" someone who I know is going to literally come back to life in another body. Especially since it's perpetual. The only way that a capsuleer will ever NOT transfer consciousness is if the player chooses to delete the character. Also, in real life, the conditions that you proposed don't rob the individual of personal choice. Paranoia and rage don't make you physically lose control of your body. You have to allow yourself to feed into your own emotions and make the choice to attack someone. And the same goes for depression. Depression in real life can make it difficult to focus on learning new material, but it isn't some mechanic that you have no control over. You have the choice to fight your own depression and make yourself focus on learning.

I swear, if you tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't experienced it....
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2015-11-04 01:59:51 UTC
tldr; "I want people to be punished in ways that makes them ineffective and unable to play the game because both I don't like what they do and don't want to exert effort to punish them myself."


EVE is set in a dystopia. Things are supposed to be dysfuntional by nature.
Hell... the lore is filled with examples of;
prostitution, slavery, drug use, murder, mass murder, assassinations, torture, suicide, ransoming, blackmail, back-stabbing, corruption, genetic atrocities, cybernetic atrocities, deliberate man-made environmental catastrophes, poverty, starvation, human sacrifice, necro-resurrections, manic psychosis, sociopathy, and every other shade of grey between.

And that is just what the so-called "civilized" empires get away with.
Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-11-04 02:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurtis Sareen
I appreciate your criticisms, but we have to remember that the point of taking away control from a player mimics how a real person may behave. It's easy to sit around shooting down ships with a group camping outside the gate, but it can be unfair to other players. (and yes I'm aware of the golden rule), this would give consequences to players who otherwise don't have them. And just because closes exist in game doesn't mean that lives are worthless. It would give pause to groups like gate-campers, raiding fleets, or individuals who prey on those trying to make an honest living, because they know that one of their own could betray them without even meaning too. There should be a price to that kind of behavior, you can't make the players behave, so it must be done through the in game mechanics. It would add a human element to the game that is missing since the players are able to hide behind their digital mask.
Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-11-04 02:12:26 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
tldr; "I want people to be punished in ways that makes them ineffective and unable to play the game because both I don't like what they do and don't want to exert effort to punish them myself."


So you say that this is a punishment for unchecked behavior? I'm not saying that you kill one character and suddenly you shoot your friends, I'm saying that there should be moderation. Eve is only a dysotopia because people allow it to be. If everyone wanted to cooperate and play nice then could be a galaxy of rainbows and butterflies. But it's too easy to be the one on the ambushing murdering side. When you bully others you sometimes feel the repercussions late in life. Thats HUMAN nature, but it's hard to feel guilt in a game, thus the need for the proposed mechanic.
Wolf Lafisques
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-11-04 02:18:33 UTC
So we're all cybernetically enhanced super-pilots (not the Titan kind of super-pilot) who can control an entire ship purely by thought, manage multiple targets, and have superb multitasking skills in general...but we can't keep our s**t together after killing a few people who didn't even actually die? You're basically asking for a mechanic that punishes players by making them "feel guilty", if you will, simply for destroying a ship. Because the idea that you "killed" someone is incorrect and irrelevant. Again, there is literally only one way to ACTUALLY kill a character, and that is to delete it, which has to be done by the player who paid to have that character in the first place. This is what I suggest for you. Create a character on one of your empty character slots (if you have any), and then send that character to the biomass re-processor (or whatever they call it). You might find it oddly therapeutic. Sadly, there is no animation for it. But the IS a really cool and gruesome sound effect for it.
Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-11-04 02:28:10 UTC
We may be cybernetically enhanced but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. That's a common thing in science fiction, the Spartan's in Halo (cybernetically enchance) had psychological issues, movies like Pandorum offer examples of what can happen on long space voyages, and games like Dead Space show how a game can still be fun even when the player is suffering from a breakdown. Just because the game allows you to keep playing after you die doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into consideration. The people who'd have problems with this proposal are generally the ones I'm talking about, with arguments like "why should I be punished for being ruining another player's time..." probably because they spend their time trying to ruin someone else's. I'm not saying it should instant and rampant destruction for players who use a violent or criminal play-style, but combat fatigue is a real thing. Marines in soldiers in the Pacific Theater suffered it, even though they were facing wave after wave of nameless and faceless individuals (to them). You're talking about undoing one of the things which makes us human, by some simple cybernetic implants.
Wolf Lafisques
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-11-04 02:31:09 UTC
Aurtis Sareen wrote:
[quote=ShahFluffers]Eve is only a dysotopia because people allow it to be.


Well, welcome to Eve Online, friend. Where "because people allow it to be" is pretty much why everything is the way it is. We are free to act as we chose and changes are made to the game based on what the majority of players want. There are already mechanics that punish illegal engagements. It's called Crime Watch, and people have been crying for quite some time about how it's not enough and punishments need to be harsher. To those people, I say only this: go get yourself a nice -10 sec status and try flying around like that for a month. Then go either grind your sec back up by ratting or buy those nifty dog tags on the market and turn them in at a CONCORD or DED station. Then come back here and talk about how the punishments aren't harsh enough. I hope you don't visit Jita often, or any of the trade hubs at that.

It's not that punishments aren't harsh enough, it's that players who gank for a living in Eve thoroughly enjoy what they do and are smart enough to find ways to mediate the consequences. Now you want to punish them for being smart? I think that gankers add depth to the game. They prevent hi-sec from being the one place where you can run to be safe from non-legal enemies.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#9 - 2015-11-04 02:41:43 UTC
Aurtis Sareen wrote:


Proposed conditions:
Paranoia, whenever in hi-sec you are unable to control your fear of being watched and may fire on a concord vessel

Rage, you begin firing indiscriminately on nearby targets, friendly or otherwise

Depression, skill training and tasks slow down, low chance of self-destruct

Players suffering from psychosis would need to wait out a cool down period, in order to lower their count.

This could also be implemented in others skills, miners would be less apt to take a dozen mining vessels into ice mining operations if half their ships visit the nearest sun after 6 hours.

There are repercussions for every action in the Eve universe, and I feel these would be justified.


I have already suffered each of these conditions just reading your post.

On a slightly more serious note, I already suffer from paranoia in high sec. I am so used to flying in 0.0 that I get stressed out seeing all those neutrals.

Rage, perhaps you should come on comms with me some time when another Russian logs off rather than fight?

Depression - just looking at how much longer my skill queue is, despite having trained continuously for over 8.5 years, is enough to make me depressed.

Psychosis - based upon your description (cool down period), this sounds like another form of jump fatigue.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-11-04 03:03:27 UTC
FT, these are just simple ideas of what could be, not what must be. I'm only talking about putting something which exists in reality, into the game. People wont check themselves because they don't have to. People check themselves in reality because there is weight behind their decisions, what I propose would add something to the game, a new dynamic. It would make people question play-styles, but not so much that it would revolutionize the game. That player who just floats around low sec killing tradesmen because he can, might have pause knowing that the next helpless person he murders could cause his pilot to self destruct. As I've said throughout, capsuleers are people, no matter what enhancements they have, what makes people people is their humanity, the conscious, their soul. We've removed that from the game through the blatant allowance of unchecked aggression towards other humans. People think it's funny to see someone else's shiny ship destroyed, because they didn't work for it. But in reality, people have myriad complex feelings on the subjects of killing, larceny, and vandalism. I'm not talking about criminal punishments, but guilt, players wont feel it, but if capsuleers are humans, they will.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#11 - 2015-11-04 03:39:16 UTC
If anything this would affect mission runners and such much moreso than those who prey exclusively on capsuleers.

Capsuleers don't die, they just get an express trip to their home station. You might feel bad for the skeleton crew that went down with the ship, but the pilot of the ship is just fine and the crew of the ship was minimal to non-existant.

However, all those rat ships are filled with actual crews that do die. That's why we are so much better that we can take a single battleship and destroy dozens if not hundreds of enemy ships. Only the named rats are capsuleers, for the most part.
Wolf Lafisques
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-11-04 03:41:13 UTC
I don't want my game to be morally sound, I want it to be fun. I certainly don't want the consequences of my actions to be random variables based on something as controversial and questionable as the existence of a soul. As far as consciousness goes, whenever a capsuleer "dies", that capsuleer's consciousness is transferred to another body. So again, capsuleers never really "die" unless a real human makes it so.

But I'll tell you what. I'll level with you here. If you agree to let me delete other characters, then I'll agree to let you cause me to explode randomly for no specific reason. That sounds reasonable. Roll
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2015-11-04 03:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Oh wow... looks like we got a live one fellas!

Aurtis Sareen wrote:
these are just simple ideas of what could be, not what must be. I'm only talking about putting something which exists in reality, into the game.

Yeah... but it doesn't actually add anything to the game.

It is a punitive mechanic designed to discourage and prevent behavior you don't like. As simple as that.

Aurtis Sareen wrote:
People wont check themselves because they don't have to. People check themselves in reality because there is weight behind their decisions, what I propose would add something to the game, a new dynamic.

Okay... so... if a player is doing something you don't like... do something about it. Create consequences yourself. Don't ask the game to do something you don't have the will to do.

The entire point of the game is player on player conflict (yes, this is a fact. Show me 1 mechanic that does not promote or facilitate players competing or fighting against one another).

Aurtis Sareen wrote:
That player who just floats around low sec killing tradesmen because he can, might have pause knowing that the next helpless person he murders could cause his pilot to self destruct.

To repeat what everyone else has said; shooting and blowing up a player is not murder.

At least... it is no more murder than taking a Pawn or a Rook in chess. It is merely a part of overall gameplay.

Again... if you want the hunter to pause before attacking someone then create the consequences yourself.

Aurtis Sareen wrote:
As I've said throughout, capsuleers are people, no matter what enhancements they have, what makes people people is their humanity, the conscious, their soul. We've removed that from the game through the blatant allowance of unchecked aggression towards other humans. People think it's funny to see someone else's shiny ship destroyed, because they didn't work for it. But in reality, people have myriad complex feelings on the subjects of killing, larceny, and vandalism. I'm not talking about criminal punishments, but guilt, players wont feel it, but if capsuleers are humans, they will.

And now you are revealed; you are a moral crusader.


Sorry bud. I don't say this often, but EVE is not for you. I rather like it the way it is.


Also... drop the "mental illness cause loss of control in the real world" trope. That is not how mental illnesses work. They alter one's perspective and twists it... but rarely does it result in the loss of control over one's impulses.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-11-04 03:44:24 UTC
All of your D&D fantasies in this thread have no relation to the real conditions. What is more, all of your states exist and ways of coping and getting help with them:

The paranoid: fly's covert cloaky non bling ships with empty cargo holds, checks gates from safe spots

The rage: lowsec, nullsec choke points, for those looking to get enraged and local, corp, or alliance chat for venting

Depression: not a joke, Broadcast for Reps. don't feel alone, you're not.

Add one for you, Mania: alts, industry and markets, other planning fantasy stuff.

Tl;Dr unsupported

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2015-11-04 03:50:34 UTC
You guys do know that a single Battleship has a crew of thousands right?
Even frigates once fitted have a crew of 10 or so with a capsuleer aboard.
We roughly halve the crew requirements, not entirely replace them.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#16 - 2015-11-04 03:51:19 UTC
Wait I do kill ships every now and then but I don't kill people. hmm well not real ones anyways.

If you a really picky, we are Cylons and whenever we die, we wake up in our next available resurrection hub and do it all over again.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-11-04 03:51:48 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Also... drop the "mental illness cause loss of control in the real world" trope. That is not how mental illnesses work. They alter one's perspective and twists it... but rarely does it result in the loss of control over one's impulses.


Drop what? 22 U.S. Veterans kill themselves EVERY DAY, metal conditions like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder can cause wild and sometimes unpredictable reactions. I'm not making things up, I served in Afghanistan and have seen the real world effects of combat on individuals. People like you, saying "this game is not for me" because I don't enjoy paying to allow someone else free reign to kill me is bull, and you know it. You can't say "so stop them yourself" because not every player magically starts out with a free Titan and the skills to pilot it. For people just starting out, people who prey on others can genuinely ruin their experiences. Eve subscriptions have allegedly been falling, and it's constantly stated that Eve players can be real scum. So what if I'm a "moral crusader" as you put it, just because I think that you shouldn't be able to run down a line of children kicking down their sand castles doesn't mean I'm inept or even not cut out for the game. But I can see no one replying is supporting me on this, so it's probably all for not.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#18 - 2015-11-04 03:53:30 UTC
Lol, wow, okay. This troll is... Interesting...

I hope you realize that most gate campers do it for fun, not profit. This idea would completely ruin their fun because... You don't like dieing? Well, welcome to Eve, glad you finally tried lowsec.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Aurtis Sareen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-11-04 03:56:52 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
All of your D&D fantasies in this thread have no relation to the real conditions. What is more, all of your states exist and ways of coping and getting help with them:

The paranoid: fly's covert cloaky non bling ships with empty cargo holds, checks gates from safe spots

The rage: lowsec, nullsec choke points, for those looking to get enraged and local, corp, or alliance chat for venting

Depression: not a joke, Broadcast for Reps. don't feel alone, you're not.

Add one for you, Mania: alts, industry and markets, other planning fantasy stuff.

Tl;Dr unsupported


Ok, so would you suggest we crack open the psychology textbook and start pulling out the actual names for conditions, these aren't D&D fantasies. I made a suggestion of something that would interesting, no one bothers to put forth constructive criticism, just the regular type.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#20 - 2015-11-04 04:09:30 UTC
Aurtis Sareen, I'm with you in spirit, but this isn't the way.

You are correct that the penalty for repeated criminal behavior should be much harsher than it is. I like to call it non-consensual PvE. Even Low-Sec still supposedly has some government oversite, control and protections. You might not get chased out into empty space by the authorities, but a known mass murderer would not be permitted to just linger on a gate, station or other monitored location. Eventually a serious warfleet would show up to deal with a known menace.

At the very least, clone services for such individuals would be rescinded--- which would be a great excuse for there to be pirate owned space, pirate owned stations, and those with sufficiently low security status would have to maintain relations with those criminal organizations (in essence turning that pirate space into high-sec for pirate players) through missions, gifts of harvested raw materials, ect... Thus giving civic minded players a place to go and hunt criminal players, stealing their mission objects (recovering stolen property), popping their miners and otherwise ruining their pve endeavors. You know, actually driving some conflict.

They have not done any of that because they gave up on developing EVE as a world to live in years ago, instead relying on emergent gameplay to create content. Push for changes that puts the pirates in the same position as their victims so that they can actually experience repercussions of their actions.

EVE is supposed to be a dystopia, but no one should have to pay a subscription fee to be part of the downtrodden masses of that dystopia.
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