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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5081 - 2015-10-28 12:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Malice Redeemer wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

What a conspiracy...

So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members?

I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5082 - 2015-10-28 12:58:33 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Malice Redeemer wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

What a conspiracy...

So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members?

I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also.


So giving someone skillpoints will help them to speak, from the person who's already stated :

I dont care about anyone else, nobodies gonna tell me how to play my game
I dont care about noobs, more of them for me to shoot
Is only bothered about what he gets out of the game
Only bothered about funding his gameplay for free.

You really do grasp MMO

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5083 - 2015-10-28 13:03:22 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Malice Redeemer wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

What a conspiracy...

So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members?

I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also.


So giving someone skillpoints will help them to speak, from the person who's already stated :

I dont care about anyone else, nobodies gonna tell me how to play my game
I dont care about noobs, more of them for me to shoot
Is only bothered about what he gets out of the game
Only bothered about funding his gameplay for free.

You really do grasp MMO


You don't get it, they'll use any kind of :logic:, however dumb or hilarious it is, to try and convince folks it's really "for the betterment of the game" if this would be implemented. There's no point in trying to reason with that because a) everyone knows it's a fake stance and b) they're not interested nor capable to actually discuss the issue, they just want to throw **** at the wall and hope something sticks
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5084 - 2015-10-28 13:03:56 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Suede wrote:

reading this says other story


I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard.

Quote:
EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.

Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.

CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar?



CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times.


This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.


The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldn’t find the words himself

Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar Pétursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasn’t what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didn’t actually write it.

more bad business practices if the CEO of CCP can not talk to it paying player base says a lot,

anyhow we just going to have to wait to see if this SP trading is other Monocle-gate.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5085 - 2015-10-28 13:11:25 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

I dont care about anyone else, nobodies gonna tell me how to play my game
I dont care about noobs, more of them for me to shoot
Is only bothered about what he gets out of the game
Only bothered about funding his gameplay for free.

*Strawman* buddy
Please don't speak for me.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Josef Djugashvilis
#5086 - 2015-10-28 13:11:29 UTC
We all know that CCP are doing this because they need the money, all the sugar coating and ingame rationalization in the world does not alter this simple fact.

This is not a signature.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5087 - 2015-10-28 13:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
It just seems shallow to say that because the game has had subs that there's no problem with SP. It's an extrinsic motivator, and it reduces intrinsic motivation options.


Facts:
1. You can fly a T3D T2 Fitted ship within your free month
2. There is no such thing as a even field in any pvp MMO - That actually exists in this reality.
3.Starter corps serve a very useful purpose in training pilot to except EvE's harshness and adapt accordingly, with fun and social activities.
4.From start to year 10 the subscription base was healthy and continued to grow.
5Only thing limiting your potential is you, seek and you shall be rewarded
6.With EvE if you log on for an hr, 5 hrs or dont log on for a week your characters still progressing without interaction.
7.Day one activities from aura / missioning / pvp / salvaging / mining / and more.


Dror
i hate skillpoints, i want a total even playing field, i want access to all ships, why should i be held back by skillpoints, i hate skillpoints, why cant i fly capitals it shows them in videos, subs are bad i hate skillpoints, its there fault subs are bad.

If nothing else your consistent thats for sure. I think we've pretty much covered its more like a one man crusade over this seeing as nobody in this thread has said anything in your favour. It may not be perfect but it works well in EvE, hopefully they will get this next bit right depending what side of the fence you favour Smile

+10 for Moac Tor's Idea's on it too.

There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play.

Starter corps are plausibly deterred, from having limited options, as much as any single character. For more information, you might check out retention stats.

SP doesn't limit potential? Really? Of course it limits. That's, for some gameplay reason unbeknownst to any, apparently, its whole purpose.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So hold on, you're quoting a study that explicitly says character progression is good and promotes a skill system over a level system as ideal to justify the idea that a game should not have character progression or a skill system...

It also suggests skill development promotes retention via "lock-in." None of your ideas about retention in relation to eliminating character development actually fall in agreement with the study. This is exactly what we mean by cherry-picking info.

Contrasting the equal opportunities of "skill progression" vs "a class system" suggests nothing about the validity of character progression as a defining game mechanic. You're pulling that one out of nowhere, it seems. If the point of a skill-based system over class-based is providing equal opportunity to win a battle, that shuts out SP.

"Lock-in" is an inherent phenomena because of the cost of switching games, including monetarily and socially.

Your ability to read is underwhelming.. and the very definition of cherry-picking.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5088 - 2015-10-28 13:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Suede wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Suede wrote:

reading this says other story


I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard.

Quote:
EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.

Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.

CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar?



CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times.


This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.


The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldn’t find the words himself

Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar Pétursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasn’t what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didn’t actually write it.

more bad business practices if the CEO of CCP can not talk to it paying player base says a lot,

anyhow we just going to have to wait to see if this SP trading is other Monocle-gate.


It is, because it started for the same reason: CCP fcked up with other projects and are now looking to milk EVE beyond what is deemed acceptable within the game's core design, only to get short term income to cover the mess they created. Instead they need to deal with that mess, get rid of it, cut costs, I don't CARE what they do. Just don't sell out EVE.


I'm fine with CCP making extra money to fund stuff as long as they do so within the parameters we hold them to: no p2w, only cosmetics and no circumvention of the ingame economy and/or player created content". They can do skins, more skins, race resets (not name, corp history or SP), heck they can make "pets" in the form of orbiting droids doing all kinds of whirring and whizzing (to keep miners happy and occupied), as long as it doesn't actually impact the game. They'd be stupid not to and that really is the thing.

For some reason they're not doing what we've actually like them doing, we'd love to send more money to CCP for skins, more clothing options, more tattoos and whatever the fck else but for some reason they're not doing that or at least not at the scale or speed that could be expected. Instead they come up with this ****.


Example: we have the golden pod, I'm willing to bet a fckton of money that if they would implement more of those (one for each major faction but also the pirate factions) and make then quite expensive they'd sell like hotcakes. They're completely useless, you won't ever really see them anyway but I'd pay through the nose for a Kaalakiotaa pod and I'm sure you'd pay quite a bit to have one for a faction you align yourself with. They have the precedent and technology yet for some reason we're still waiting for this. How DUMB must one's marketing team be to not recognise this and act on it?

Case in point: Fed navy comet police skin, make a pod version of that complete with 2 flash lights (one on the top, one on the bottom red and blue), sell it for the equivalent of $100. I'd buy that for several of my characters and you can bet your ass tons of other folks would do too.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5089 - 2015-10-28 14:03:55 UTC
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5090 - 2015-10-28 14:05:54 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.

"I can get a Titan in 90m." Please, share.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#5091 - 2015-10-28 14:23:22 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.

"I can get a Titan in 90m." Please, share.

You can't even get one in Sisi without having one in tranq I think?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5092 - 2015-10-28 14:34:11 UTC
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5093 - 2015-10-28 14:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play.

How can you compared wow's PvP arena though, you can't start doing it until you reach level 70, even when you start to use there Battlegrounds theyre capped at levels:

Arathi Basin - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap
Warsong Gulch - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap
Alterac valley - start level 20 then locked in groups 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap

There is not a single Arena or Battleground in WoW where even a level 10 character can face off to a level 100 with good reason!!
Is there something you do not comprehend about SANDBOX.

Also eve has pilot / capsuleers - We can fly any ship in game when we have invested the time to use them, WoW once a lock always a lock thats why your study advocates a skillpoint system over a class based system. Every pilot has access to anything in game and is equal. - WoW when wrath came out DK's were OP / when cata came out it was ret pala's and mages / MoP it was locks / WoD it was hunters.

PvP even to this day you'll need more than one person to bring a blood DK down - OP

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5094 - 2015-10-28 14:44:53 UTC
Hey Rise, this is the level of reasoning your idea is based on. Are you ashamed yet?


Dror wrote:
There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5095 - 2015-10-28 15:17:20 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play.

How can you compared wow's PvP arena though, you can't start doing it until you reach level 70, even when you start to use there Battlegrounds theyre capped at levels:

Arathi Basin - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap
Warsong Gulch - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap
Alterac valley - start level 20 then locked in groups 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap

There is not a single Arena or Battleground in WoW where even a level 10 character can face off to a level 100 with good reason!!
Is there something you do not comprehend about SANDBOX.

Also eve has pilot / capsuleers - We can fly any ship in game when we have invested the time to use them, WoW once a lock always a lock thats why your study advocates a skillpoint system over a class based system. Every pilot has access to anything in game and is equal. - WoW when wrath came out DK's were OP / when cata came out it was ret pala's and mages / MoP it was locks / WoD it was hunters.

PvP even to this day you'll need more than one person to bring a blood DK down - OP

It should seem obvious that leveling in MMOs is irrelevant content. The gameplay comes at max level, as does PvP tuning. That leveling is untuned is irreleavant for discussing interesting gameplay. In fact, the low quality of "a lvl 10 vs a lvl 100" should clear up just how awful leveling is, and that includes SP. The sort-of equivalent is a low-SP frigate vs a T3C. It's possible leveling up every class before it is "leveling" SP. ..Warm memo that no EVE character is maxed.

In other words, you're not making a point. That is, the implication that leveling is somehow relevant for discussing equal opportunity is, at best, low quality.

Tiberius Heth wrote:
Hey Rise, this is the level of reasoning your idea is based on. Are you ashamed yet?


Dror wrote:
There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play.

If you actually have anything to say, maybe you should post it.

Can you make a claim -- a hypothesis?

Dror wrote:
How objective motivation is? How creativity comes best from intrinsic motivation? How MMO subs seem most correlative with the perceived amount of content? How game loyalty comes from "social identity" and scientifically defined "psychological ownership" of the character?


Enjoy.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5096 - 2015-10-28 15:32:29 UTC
Why does your Study advocate a skillpoint system over a class based one then?, also when you come to what ever a level cap is in place in a class based game then your on whats called End Game Content, where is EvE's end game content as we dont have an end game.
Once your level 100 in wow you run the same raids the same dungeons on the same maps waiting for the next exp to hit. We have no end game.

As a pilot the more time invested ( skillpoint system from your study) the more we achieve, were no stronger or weaker we all start the same we all gain the same maximum amount of sp's daily if theyre optimised - We're all equal.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5097 - 2015-10-28 15:41:22 UTC
Dror wrote:
How objective motivation is? How creativity comes best from intrinsic motivation? How MMO subs seem most correlative with the perceived amount of content? How game loyalty comes from "social identity" and scientifically defined "psychological ownership" of the character?



Questionnaire Items
1. Primary Control over the Character [24, 65]

Pcon1: I can decorate or personalize my character as much as I
want. (deleted)
Pcon2: I know how to effectively control my character.
Pcon3: In general, I am adept at managing my character.

2. Secondary Control over the Character [24, 65]

Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character.
Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character.
Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character.

3. Psychological Ownership Toward the Character [25, 65]

Own1: The character that I control in the game belongs to me. (deleted)
Own2: I have strong feelings of ownership toward my character.
Own3: I interact with my character. (deleted)
Own4: I feel that my character is an extended part of myself.

Look at 2/1 and most of the questions would suggest they were RP'ers more than hardcore gamers, i seen some of that in action and explains the questions what they were asked more now. WTF ,i seen someone holding a wedding service in wow once and almost quit.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#5098 - 2015-10-28 16:31:01 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.


After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5099 - 2015-10-28 16:33:17 UTC
I have removed a couple off-topic posts and those quoting them.

Quote:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5100 - 2015-10-28 16:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.


After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.


There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything.

I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly. e.g /Giveall

If you could be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”