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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5061 - 2015-10-27 09:18:24 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Etara Silverblade wrote:
It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.

From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.

It was smart but not enough. TwistedTwisting facts not gonna work. There is a bunch of people who want that change. Too bad if you want to mislead people by false facts on purpose.


Where is there arguments for what this will solve? The main thrust of their arguments seem to be that we already have the bazaar, so in essence they are arguing that there will be no change.

Thats not my words. So I feel free to disagree with them. SP traiding is better because it will allow me to keep my indentity and spend money(isk in my case) in more consistent way.

Malice Redeemer wrote:
it will make spying even more trivial than it is already

About spying

Malice Redeemer wrote:

it will make the most powerful more powerful

What a conspiracy...

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5062 - 2015-10-27 09:56:11 UTC
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5063 - 2015-10-27 10:19:06 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.


if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5064 - 2015-10-27 11:40:06 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Suede wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img]
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy


Why not let players move there SP to other skills,

saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points,

Because people already whining that consequences doesn't matter anymore. #1 #2 Please don't get it worse.


You know the 2 posts that you highlighted as examples that in game consequences don't matter are actually saying they do matter. Im not trying to twist your words or anything, just makes me wonder if something gets lost in translation.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5065 - 2015-10-27 12:04:43 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Suede wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img]
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy


Why not let players move there SP to other skills,

saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points,

Because people already whining that consequences doesn't matter anymore. #1 #2 Please don't get it worse.


You know the 2 posts that you highlighted as examples that in game consequences don't matter are actually saying they do matter. Im not trying to twist your words or anything, just makes me wonder if something gets lost in translation.

won't matter... are you happy now?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#5066 - 2015-10-27 13:33:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it).

Question What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that?
The prestige is the SP you have on that character, obviously. It's a non-trivial amount who's prestige is protected by ensuring that matching or exceeding it comes at significant cost.

The prestige of high SP characters is the skills and SP they have and the investment it takes to obtain them. This Prestige is protected by diminishing use of SP trading to ensure creating such characters remains far from trivial.

That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.

3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters - You can fly just about anything you choose if you know how to use those SP your going to buy - Far cheaper, much faster and more effective than training 1 character to 150 mil SP. As long as SP packets are available, it will no longer be worth training up 1 highly skilled pilot.

Once you get all 3 to 50 mil SP, your still going to have to pay the monthly sub, just put that to use on 1 character and train your little heart out. Won't mean much though, you can already fly everything worth flying.

Want to fly a titan you can do it with less than 50 mil SP and have good skills for your chosen titan.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
#5067 - 2015-10-27 15:32:00 UTC
Time invested playing and learning the game is MORE important than skillpoints...

this change will provide a small short-term boost in players but lead to a longterm drop.

DON'T DO IT CCP !!!
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#5068 - 2015-10-27 15:36:52 UTC
The silence is typical for this kind of blog. They might have gotten more heat than they realized and went into PR mode. Or the devs working on this 'feature' are still analyzing and debating the issues but unfortunately are not holding a dialogue with the players. Or it could be that this is being pushed by the execs and the devs have really no good answers as their hands are tied and execs of course will not reply to us. Or could be something else completely, I'm not privy to their inner workings.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5069 - 2015-10-27 16:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
CCP Rise wrote:
As a player, the Character Bazaar is how I made the switch from being a 15 million skillpoint Interceptor pilot to being a 33 million skillpoint Battleship pilot. I was able to afford it using the ISK I had earned in my first year plus the sale value of my character.
What actually drew you to the pilot in the first place, the fact it was a battleship pilot or that it had 33 mill skillpoints and it was in your price bracket.
CCP Rise wrote:
That part really hits home for me is Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards.
As always pointed out in EvE, Actions have consequences. You dont need 3rd party software to insert a players name in the client check his last few corps and send them a message, Even just tell them he's applied to the corp is he ok ?? Just because you saw 33m skillpoints doesnt mean you throw caution to the wind and impulse buy.
CCP Rise wrote:
I went from being called ‘Turbo Dinosaur’ to being called ‘Kil2’. Puke, On top of all that, you have to accept that you don’t get any personalization of the character you’re buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy.
Personalization, If you had the chance to reskill "Turbo Dinosaur" to the battleship pilot you wanted would you of even looked at purchasing Kil2.Puke, In this scenario you wouldnt of had to deal with the 2 years of negativity if the options below are offered.
CCP Rise wrote:
We also discovered that the vast majority of complexity involved in character sales goes away if you make them more granular. Rather than requiring that characters be sold whole, we could allow them to be broken up and sold in chunks. This means that buyers get to retain all the individuality associated with their characters and sellers can make some money off their training mistakes or unused skills without having to part ways with an entire character.
So you now want to basically butcher characters in pursuit of personalization instead of allowing us to reskill, Introducing a product that could possibly be abused by anyone in game. This option submitted by Moac TorTakes away that very problem, Has specific targeted uses and could be sold in game for those who wanted to use game currency to purchase and on the website where plex are - for cash. These offer true personalization not the chop shop version.
If its for a true way to personalize the game, to involve a new client base as well as benefit all others existing you would do well to look at the alternative. Lets see if someone will actually respond Roll

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5070 - 2015-10-27 17:27:56 UTC
Can I patent the phrase' Can I haz your stuff? And your brain?' I think it could be a good earner...
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5071 - 2015-10-27 20:03:42 UTC
CCPlease don't force me to call my ship "Serenity" and wearing browncoat.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5072 - 2015-10-27 21:09:53 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it).

Question What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that?
The prestige is the SP you have on that character, obviously. It's a non-trivial amount who's prestige is protected by ensuring that matching or exceeding it comes at significant cost.

The prestige of high SP characters is the skills and SP they have and the investment it takes to obtain them. This Prestige is protected by diminishing use of SP trading to ensure creating such characters remains far from trivial.

That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.

3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters - You can fly just about anything you choose if you know how to use those SP your going to buy - Far cheaper, much faster and more effective than training 1 character to 150 mil SP. As long as SP packets are available, it will no longer be worth training up 1 highly skilled pilot.

Once you get all 3 to 50 mil SP, your still going to have to pay the monthly sub, just put that to use on 1 character and train your little heart out. Won't mean much though, you can already fly everything worth flying.

Want to fly a titan you can do it with less than 50 mil SP and have good skills for your chosen titan.
150m SP goes further on one character than 3 by eliminating redundancies. Whatever you can fly with those 3 you cam fly some or all of it better with that single character. The solution of creating 3 50mill SP characters is unlikely to be cheap unless SP on the market gets dirt cheap compared to it's "cost" to produce, and the flexibility of high SP characters in multiple roles will remain.

And if you go for a titan at 50m SP you're using half or more between supports and prereqs. For a dedicated titan character that's fine, for a character you plan on making a main probably not so much unless you have a limited amount else you want to fly and/or you stay away from T2/3 ships that eat SP in training.

What value the ability to have several roles concentrated into single characters has will vary from person to person, but my multi-role frigate/destroyer pilot is over 50m SP due to the full range of abilities and efficiencies I wanted that character to have.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5073 - 2015-10-27 22:38:46 UTC
Suede wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.


if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk


They did well before, so not an excuse.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5074 - 2015-10-28 08:20:34 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Suede wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.


if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk


They did well before, so not an excuse.
This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM.
While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5075 - 2015-10-28 08:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Mag's wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Suede wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.


if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk


They did well before, so not an excuse.
This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM.
While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.


CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again.

This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :)
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5076 - 2015-10-28 08:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
They did well before, so not an excuse.
This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM.
While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.


CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again.

This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :)
They also have a rich history of ignoring feedback (the parts that stop the idea) and going ahead anyway. Then trying to sort out the mess that ensues, but never really doing so.

You may be right, but I have my doubts in this instance.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5077 - 2015-10-28 09:25:37 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Suede wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.


if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk


They did well before, so not an excuse.
This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM.
While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.


CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again.

This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :)

It was not curiosity that killed the goose who laid the golden egg, but an insatiable greed that devoured common sense.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5078 - 2015-10-28 09:38:43 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Suede wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.


if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk


They did well before, so not an excuse.
This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM.
While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.


CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again.

This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :)


reading this says other story
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf

Story of White Wolf.
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#5079 - 2015-10-28 11:00:49 UTC
General Lootit wrote:

What a conspiracy...


So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members?
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5080 - 2015-10-28 11:04:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Suede wrote:

reading this says other story


I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard.

Quote:
EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.

Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.

CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar?



CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times.