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PvE changes
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1 - 2015-10-27 12:18:24 UTC
Huge Changes Coming to Drifters, Standings, and More
Tribute system is meh, but everything else looks delicious. Procedurally generated content. Apart from timeline...few years.
In game where most of players start with PvE and most of them, if hooked, stay on non-combat pvp side it looks like huge arrow in the knee from developing perspecitve. I'm aware that EvE need healthy PvP environment (in every meanings of this term) but PvE content is stale and waiting few more years because we'll need fix fozzie sov in 2018 or because someone feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally is kinda long.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2 - 2015-10-27 12:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Huge Changes Coming to Drifters, Standings, and More
Tribute system is meh, but everything else looks delicious. Procedurally generated content. Apart from timeline...few years.
In game where most of players start with PvE and most of them, if hooked, stay on non-combat pvp side it looks like huge arrow in the knee from developing perspecitve. I'm aware that EvE need healthy PvP environment (in every meanings of this term) but PvE content is stale and waiting few more years because we'll need fix fozzie sov in 2018 or because someone feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally is kinda long.


I went there and read that. Now I'm worried (but only a bit). It all sounds like a bit of fun in the beginning.

"Fozziesov" wasn't a player made thing but players did heavily influence it. Years and years of complaints became a whackamole sov system that many dislike and some of us think is misplaced (feels more like something that belongs in lowsec/FW than null).

This talk of changing ("improving" to the complainer sect) gives me the exact same feeling Fozziesov does: Years of complaints by dissatisfied PVErs (who don't understand that their dissatisfaction is a personal matter, not a problem with PVE) will turn into a situation that those PVErs (those guys, not PVErs like me) asked for, but end up despising when they see it in action.

They think they want "dynamic, procedurally generated PVE", but when CCP does this and also gives every.single.npc "Burner AI", and the familiarity and comforts of saving the damsel for the millionth time goes away, and when expensive PVE ships start to die (like they do with current Drifters), attitudes will change.

The truth is, PVE players in EVE aren't adventure seekers (no matter what they tell you), we tend to be comfort seekers, which is why many of us never leave high sec, and most of us spend time doing mission after mission or anomaly after anomaly despite the fact that much more lucrative PVE (Incursions, FW, in wormholes, pirate missions, lvl 5s) exist. So CCP will do this stuff after years of ignorant PVEr complaints, and those PVE jocks will do the new pve for a bit, and then leave it alone.

What's worse, if the "old, stale standard" PVE goes completely away ie if CCP does a fozziesov and thought the PVE baby out with the PVE water, those PVErs will eventually quit (no different than the complaints about mining, if you make mining "more interesting" most miners will end up quitting, they aren't the types to do "interesting", they are the types to do "patience"), because again, PVE is more about comfort than adventure or monetary gain ,though some of us are adventurous from time to time.

What will happen is that EVERY PVe ship will become like wormhole pve ships: omnitankers . Because when in doubt, omni tank. This is why Wormhole PVE is the most boring (incursions are a close second), no room for innovations which is at the heart of sandbox PVE. It becomes a numbers game only.

The people who will actually benefit are PVP players who will get a crack at player's goods by attacking npc convoys, and of course someone will find a way to use NPCs against others in different ways.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-10-27 12:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
Fizzle-SOV looks like a lifetime commitment. You know what happens when a three-legged dog tries to run in a straight line? Well...try a one-legged dog. So good to see "talent" and "skill" recruited from the player ranks. Brilliant, just brilliant!

Oh, about the dis-PvE rant ( as though it's some weird anomaly ) since the MAJORITY of players are PvE (probably what triggered the rant) having the same old "missions" over and over and over again - with no new missions, or mission "logic" added, while watching this (as was said) this years-long whack-a-mole wrestling match with SoV, then being BLAMED for it...I tell yah...

PvE-ers know better, so this sort of talk looks like exactly what it is.

Bear in mind - CCP is a corporation. As such, it has ONE goal and one goal ONLY, and building a great game is second (if it's lucky) to that. Come in out of the magic forest PvP-ers.

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Wendrika Hydreiga
#4 - 2015-10-27 12:59:09 UTC
Well, if this Standing changes can actually justify being in good terms with the Guristas I'm all for it. The lack of a Spring Guristas Bunny on the other hand, not so much...

Asymptote Standings are extremely off-putting aswell.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5 - 2015-10-27 13:03:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
They think they want "dynamic, procedurally generated PVE", but when CCP does this and also gives every.single.npc "Burner AI", and the familiarity and comforts of saving the damsel for the millionth time goes away, and when expensive PVE ships start to die (like they do with current Drifters), attitudes will change.

Depends what CCP hide behind "procedurally generated PvE"? If this few burners like npcs, no warp gates (single pocket) and randomly generated asteroid/station/debris then hard to call it improvement.
On the other side I would love to see procedurally generated non-combat exploration sites. It's like four of a kind, containers are at the same places, clone of a clone of a clone.
All depends how deep goes procedural changes.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Kooshti
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-10-27 13:21:13 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
MAJORITY of players do PvE


fixed that for you
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#7 - 2015-10-27 13:25:19 UTC
Surprising article, unfortunately way too far in the future to interest me.

Thanks for the link.

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~
Jade Blackwind
#8 - 2015-10-27 13:43:13 UTC
Article wrote:
How would you like a busy, vibrant, and realistic Eve where NPCs and players interact in a logical way that fits in with the lore of New Eden? How would you like to fly Drifter battleship or capital craft? CCP Affinity led a small but passionate group of players in a roundtable discussion on Sunday, which focused on one of the most notorious parts of Eve Online: the Player versus Environment experience. After requesting that no recordings of the discussion be made, players in attendance were treated to a sneak peek at what CCP would like to do with one of the largest aspects of the game, and how this is going to make not just changes to PvE, but the entirety of how you interact with the game... (...) Sadly, though, the complete rework of the PvE system with procedural generation is still at least a couple of years out. A timeline on the standings system rework was not even given.


Eve Online Atmospheric Flight Demo

I'll just leave this here.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#9 - 2015-10-27 14:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
What she said.

No, wait, there's a better one.

What she said, actually.

2018, people. Wait AT LEAST until 2018 for the cool stuff to come. Hey: and only if we actually use whatever is released before so CCP considers us PvE scum worthy of precious dev time.

Also, this is subject to whether nothing else will break down there at null (heh, sure thing...)

Sorry boys. It's too late, and those are just words.
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-10-27 14:54:08 UTC
Even if a tiny fraction of what is discussed here eventually makes it into the game, I'll be happy. The PvE in EVE is stale, stale, stale and it simply does not have to be that way.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#11 - 2015-10-27 15:17:15 UTC
These are good oh so good....hopefully changes will find a way to get to us sooner rather than later because pve part of a sandbox is in dire need of upgrading and if done right it will be marvelous.

Tribute sistem is somewhat meh but I understand why it is first one to hit the servers.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#12 - 2015-10-27 15:19:11 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Hey: and only if we actually use whatever is released before so CCP considers us PvE scumd worthy of precious dev time.


Some people just love being a helpless victim. Too bad, while you'r waiting for 2018 I'll be killing npcs in anomalies, belts, incursions, wormholes and deadspace, you know, the PVE that actually exists now and is pretty good if you know how to use it.
Kooshti
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-10-27 15:23:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Hey: and only if we actually use whatever is released before so CCP considers us PvE scumd worthy of precious dev time.


Some people just love being a helpless victim. Too bad, while you'r waiting for 2018 I'll be killing npcs in anomalies, belts, incursions, wormholes and deadspace, you know, the PVE that actually exists now and is pretty good if you know how to use it.


but that means going to other space why cant we have everything in highsec so we can be safe and not travel? nerf code. too
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#14 - 2015-10-27 15:26:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
They think they want "dynamic, procedurally generated PVE", but when CCP does this and also gives every.single.npc "Burner AI", and the familiarity and comforts of saving the damsel for the millionth time goes away, and when expensive PVE ships start to die (like they do with current Drifters), attitudes will change.
I disagree. I think a lot of people are happy to lost ships for more dynamic content. You give them very little credit because they dislike being ganked by the alt of a veteran in a disposable ship after saving the damsel for the millionth time. There's a vast difference between disliking that and disliking challenge in their mechanics.

Jenn aSide wrote:
What will happen is that EVERY PVe ship will become like wormhole pve ships: omnitankers . Because when in doubt, omni tank. This is why Wormhole PVE is the most boring (incursions are a close second), no room for innovations which is at the heart of sandbox PVE. It becomes a numbers game only.
That's not why WH PvE is boring. WH PvE is boring because you have to hammer your d-scan button repeatedly while grinding through anoms then still have to ship out your loot to get rewarded. Being omnitanked in itself doesn't really impact the level of fun in an activity.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#15 - 2015-10-27 16:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
They think they want "dynamic, procedurally generated PVE", but when CCP does this and also gives every.single.npc "Burner AI", and the familiarity and comforts of saving the damsel for the millionth time goes away, and when expensive PVE ships start to die (like they do with current Drifters), attitudes will change.
I disagree. I think a lot of people are happy to lost ships for more dynamic content. You give them very little credit because they dislike being ganked by the alt of a veteran in a disposable ship after saving the damsel for the millionth time. There's a vast difference between disliking that and disliking challenge in their mechanics.


What nonsense are you one about this time? No one said anything about ganking.


Quote:
That's not why WH PvE is boring. WH PvE is boring because you have to hammer your d-scan button repeatedly while grinding through anoms then still have to ship out your loot to get rewarded. Being omnitanked in itself doesn't really impact the level of fun in an activity.


To you maybe. Not everyone is like you (thank goodness lol).

I don't spam the d-scan button, I fly a ship (set of ships actually) that stand a chance against all but the biggest attacking groups when I day trip into a wormhole. ECCM/target lock breaker fit remote repping Dominixes are hard for small gangs to break even if they bring a jamming ship (the target lock breaker is for when one of the Domis dies, the other my be able to flee, it's worked so far).

For those of us who like to tinker and use different (underused) modules and such, wormhole space is pretty boring (but rewarding) PVE wise, omni damage and 'advanced AI' limits your choices, which limits fitting possibilities, which limits fun (for people like us). Onmi damage/NPC omnitanks makes wormhole PVE and incursions very stale compared to missions and anomalies where you can be extremely creative ab out how you tackle them. For example You won't be taking a speed tanking assault frig to do a class 3 wormhole, you can in a mission or anom.




On a side note, I notice that both halves of your reply revolve around the activities of other players (ganking in the 1st, having to use d-scan because of other players in the second). That's telling, and it fits with what I observe of your outlook; you seem terrified of other players. PVErs like me see other players as just another challenge to be knocked down, not as some kind of barrier. Ships die, the idea is to make enough profit to make ship death worth it.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#16 - 2015-10-27 16:14:58 UTC
Holy Crap, I think i found my soul mate in that article's comment section. 2 things, please let "Afk not be a guy" and no one tell my wife (lol).

AFK wrote:


First thing you need to realise, there is not one group of "PVEr's". There are several. The one you mention, who just grind for isk, will never enjoy PVE in any form because it's just a means to an end, they will always go for efficiency and so will always bore themselves to death eventually.
Secondly there are WOW style PVE who want "interesting PVE", some sort of story, lore and so on, mix up the rooms and so on. They will get bored and unsub, waiting for the next expansion of content to be spoonfed. They just want to "relax after their day". They probably never left highsec.
Then the third group, who actually enjoy PVE because it's a challenge, to work out how to travel there, how to run the site, sneak under the nose of someone, escape with the goods, make use of all the tools of the sandbox has on offer. But then, we already find PVE interesting because there is SOOO much PVE - incursions (HQ/ass/scout in hi/low/null), wormholes (gas/sites/hacking C1-C6), level4s, level5s, mining missions, gas huffing, gas combats, pirate missions, epic arcs, DEDs , unrateds, drone sites, COSMOS, relics, datas, ghost sites, biseiged coverts, anoms, escalations and we have skills to access them all and run them all, not needing to be spoon fed. In fact by the time you rotate them all you've already forgotten the first thing you ran making it kind of the "new experience" people are apparently asking for.

Anyway good luck to CCP trying to entertain the first and second groups, it will be a never ending task and suck up endless dev time and resources for probably not much thanks.


AFK got it spot on about the 3rd group (kudos to this guy for finding the fun in wormholes). "Group 3 PVE" would be a good name for a corp lol, I might make one.
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#17 - 2015-10-27 16:44:27 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Holy Crap, I think i found my soul mate in that article's comment section. 2 things, please let "Afk not be a guy" and no one tell my wife (lol).

AFK wrote:


First thing you need to realise, there is not one group of "PVEr's". There are several. The one you mention, who just grind for isk, will never enjoy PVE in any form because it's just a means to an end, they will always go for efficiency and so will always bore themselves to death eventually.
Secondly there are WOW style PVE who want "interesting PVE", some sort of story, lore and so on, mix up the rooms and so on. They will get bored and unsub, waiting for the next expansion of content to be spoonfed. They just want to "relax after their day". They probably never left highsec.
Then the third group, who actually enjoy PVE because it's a challenge, to work out how to travel there, how to run the site, sneak under the nose of someone, escape with the goods, make use of all the tools of the sandbox has on offer. But then, we already find PVE interesting because there is SOOO much PVE - incursions (HQ/ass/scout in hi/low/null), wormholes (gas/sites/hacking C1-C6), level4s, level5s, mining missions, gas huffing, gas combats, pirate missions, epic arcs, DEDs , unrateds, drone sites, COSMOS, relics, datas, ghost sites, biseiged coverts, anoms, escalations and we have skills to access them all and run them all, not needing to be spoon fed. In fact by the time you rotate them all you've already forgotten the first thing you ran making it kind of the "new experience" people are apparently asking for.

Anyway good luck to CCP trying to entertain the first and second groups, it will be a never ending task and suck up endless dev time and resources for probably not much thanks.


AFK got it spot on about the 3rd group (kudos to this guy for finding the fun in wormholes). "Group 3 PVE" would be a good name for a corp lol, I might make one.
1,2 and 3 are stereotypes imho. I personally like to do a wide variety of PvE things in EvE(3) with as much efficiency as possible(1) and enjoy (and am interested in) the stories and lore behind it(2).
Please do not put me (and many others like me) in a predefined box. Smile

And on a side note, there is a lot of PvE fun to be found in W-Space.

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-10-27 17:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
My take on PvE improvements, you will never be able make it interesting enough for longer period of time for adventurous players. Those adventurous players today run hacking sites outside highsec or ninja gas mine in WH, etc., but the adventure does not come from PvE but from PvP. So the easiest way to make repetitive PvE interesting is to combine it with PvP. That's why the Blood Raider event is such a success.

For the majority of the player base PvE is just their ISK source, and any disruption on this (and unpredictability is just that) will have devastating effects. The thing what should stress players, is PvP not PvE, otherwise they will burn out, quit.

So my recommendation, keep PvE rather simple and manageable with "IQ dimmer = on", but diverse (lore!) and combine it with varying options and degrees of PvP.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#19 - 2015-10-27 17:09:49 UTC
Daily rewards that make you play boring content are worth as much boredom as someone can take until he will be bored by it.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#20 - 2015-10-27 17:11:22 UTC
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Holy Crap, I think i found my soul mate in that article's comment section. 2 things, please let "Afk not be a guy" and no one tell my wife (lol).

AFK wrote:


First thing you need to realise, there is not one group of "PVEr's". There are several. The one you mention, who just grind for isk, will never enjoy PVE in any form because it's just a means to an end, they will always go for efficiency and so will always bore themselves to death eventually.
Secondly there are WOW style PVE who want "interesting PVE", some sort of story, lore and so on, mix up the rooms and so on. They will get bored and unsub, waiting for the next expansion of content to be spoonfed. They just want to "relax after their day". They probably never left highsec.
Then the third group, who actually enjoy PVE because it's a challenge, to work out how to travel there, how to run the site, sneak under the nose of someone, escape with the goods, make use of all the tools of the sandbox has on offer. But then, we already find PVE interesting because there is SOOO much PVE - incursions (HQ/ass/scout in hi/low/null), wormholes (gas/sites/hacking C1-C6), level4s, level5s, mining missions, gas huffing, gas combats, pirate missions, epic arcs, DEDs , unrateds, drone sites, COSMOS, relics, datas, ghost sites, biseiged coverts, anoms, escalations and we have skills to access them all and run them all, not needing to be spoon fed. In fact by the time you rotate them all you've already forgotten the first thing you ran making it kind of the "new experience" people are apparently asking for.

Anyway good luck to CCP trying to entertain the first and second groups, it will be a never ending task and suck up endless dev time and resources for probably not much thanks.


AFK got it spot on about the 3rd group (kudos to this guy for finding the fun in wormholes). "Group 3 PVE" would be a good name for a corp lol, I might make one.
1,2 and 3 are stereotypes imho. I personally like to do a wide variety of PvE things in EvE(3) with as much efficiency as possible(1) and enjoy (and am interested in) the stories and lore behind it(2).
Please do not put me (and many others like me) in a predefined box. Smile

And on a side note, there is a lot of PvE fun to be found in W-Space.


Most people are like that I think. No one is saying someone must be only a 1,2, or 3. What the guy is saying (as far as I can tell) boils down to "you can't please everyone, and trying to please those who can't be please for long is a mistake".

CCP doesn't have the team or the resources to keep punching out cyclical pve content (like Star Trek Online "Episodes") to keep people who are mainly themepark lore heavy PVErs.

And making PVE "interesting" for the min/maxxing "I need isk for other things and I need it quickly" crowd will be a big turn off too. The reason relatively uninteresting pve (null sec anoms, FW missions and such) is done so much is that quick isk injection.

And like the guy said, those of us who already like EVE PVE and experience more of it (by moving from activity to activity) already provide our own dynamic PVE experience, so CCP wasting time on this is not necessary.



So in general i think this discussion CCP had (where they basically revealed a pve wishlist) doesn't excite me. In fact, I think the 'vibrant world' of NPC roaming gangs is a terrible idea. Traditionally, you have to want to experience PVe and actively go do that for PVe to happen (even now, you have to shoot a drifer to get them to kill you). EVE has non-consensual PVP, but except for a few rats on a few gates or getting shot at by rats when you warp into someone else's site/belt, EVE has stuck with Consensual Only PVE.

I absolutely do not want to see non-consensual PVE become the norm in EVE. When we want that kind of experience, we can just shoot at real people. PVE should stay PVE and not turn in to some stale shallow imitation of PVP.
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