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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#5041 - 2015-10-26 18:48:26 UTC
I initially was against this change. But after the input of some people here, I think that the problems with it will only affect people that deserve to be negativelly impacted by it.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5042 - 2015-10-26 18:49:28 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it).

Question What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that?
The prestige is the SP you have on that character, obviously. It's a non-trivial amount who's prestige is protected by ensuring that matching or exceeding it comes at significant cost.

The prestige of high SP characters is the skills and SP they have and the investment it takes to obtain them. This Prestige is protected by diminishing use of SP trading to ensure creating such characters remains far from trivial.

That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5043 - 2015-10-26 19:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
It just seems shallow to say that because the game has had subs that there's no problem with SP. It's an extrinsic motivator, and it reduces intrinsic motivation options.


Facts:
1. You can fly a T3D T2 Fitted ship within your free month
2. There is no such thing as a even field in any pvp MMO - That actually exists in this reality.
3.Starter corps serve a very useful purpose in training pilot to except EvE's harshness and adapt accordingly, with fun and social activities.
4.From start to year 10 the subscription base was healthy and continued to grow.
5Only thing limiting your potential is you, seek and you shall be rewarded
6.With EvE if you log on for an hr, 5 hrs or dont log on for a week your characters still progressing without interaction.
7.Day one activities from aura / missioning / pvp / salvaging / mining / and more.


Dror
i hate skillpoints, i want a total even playing field, i want access to all ships, why should i be held back by skillpoints, i hate skillpoints, why cant i fly capitals it shows them in videos, subs are bad i hate skillpoints, its there fault subs are bad.

If nothing else your consistent thats for sure. I think we've pretty much covered its more like a one man crusade over this seeing as nobody in this thread has said anything in your favour. It may not be perfect but it works well in EvE, hopefully they will get this next bit right depending what side of the fence you favour Smile

+10 for Moac Tor's Idea's on it too.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5044 - 2015-10-26 19:00:03 UTC
Dror wrote:

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
You're not actually addressing if SP is a problem, nor if it is being updated because of that.

It causes a black market. That is supposedly an issue. You're also inaccurately ascribing value to characters and not gameplay. The point is just more evidence that subs aren't getting what they come for, whether it's a top tier character or a top tier experience.
I did address that actually, I specifically addressed why this was being expanded.

The relevant portion for this change is, "to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it."

It's not the presence of a black market, that's what justified the Bazaar initially, but we've moved beyond that. There is no black market for granulated SP (no means to trade it exists, thus no market can even be formed) so granulating SP can't be justified by that reasoning.

Dror wrote:
You're saying the study's idea is fundamentally flawed. That's on you. How is it not obvious that character value is directly correlative with what that character can do?
No, I'm saying the study:
a) wasn't actually presented itself, but your interpretations, shielding yourself from anyone determining applicability or critique
b) even with your interpretations you gave doesn't actually support your assertions; you're still making the assumption that SP is a social determinator while not providing evidence this "study" actually says that. Rather you're taking your own bias about the value of a character being determined by SP and creating these equivalencies purely from that rather than the study.

The rest of us don't see low SP players as effectively crippled and thus don't conflate that as being socially undesirable. You haven't presented any study with counter reasoning.

Nothing says that SP trading produces a black market, obviously, but SP does.

The study is quoted exactly.

Quote:
Developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.

Social identity is defined as the individual’s knowledge that he or she belongs to a particular social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership.

Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms.

What are you not getting about fair gameplay and opportunity being key?
So hold on, you're quoting a study that explicitly says character progression is good and promotes a skill system over a level system as ideal to justify the idea that a game should not have character progression or a skill system...

It also suggests skill development promotes retention via "lock-in." None of your ideas about retention in relation to eliminating character development actually fall in agreement with the study. This is exactly what we mean by cherry-picking info.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5045 - 2015-10-26 19:09:16 UTC
careful here he'll now switch to motivational needs or psychological ownership to knock you off your train of thought Blink

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5046 - 2015-10-26 19:55:11 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:
[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img]
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy


Why not let players move there SP to other skills,

saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points,
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5047 - 2015-10-26 20:18:42 UTC
Suede wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img]
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy


Why not let players move there SP to other skills,

saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points,

Because people already whining that consequences doesn't matter anymore. #1 #2 Please don't get it worse.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5048 - 2015-10-26 20:21:54 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.

Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then
Quote:
By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone.

is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5049 - 2015-10-26 20:26:34 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.

Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then
Quote:
By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone.

is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.


Sounds like
Eve is like a roller coaster. It has its ups and downs...but it's your choice to either scream or enjoy the ride.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5050 - 2015-10-26 20:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.

Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then
Quote:
By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone.

is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.

I'm feel sorry for you.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5051 - 2015-10-26 20:44:24 UTC
Any decisions to discuss CCP? This thread became redundant long time ago.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5052 - 2015-10-26 20:54:25 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic.

Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then
Quote:
By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone.

is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.
It is for everyone. Before you could not remove unwanted skills or add SP packets at any rate. Since 50k > 0 that means you have greater control in adding SP. Since 500k > 0 you still have greater ability to remove skills. No one, including CCP, ever said your character would have the same level of return on SP packets as a new one. No such claim was made in the blog or otherwise.

No one ever said complete control, they said more control, which is exactly and demonstrably what you are getting.

And there is no such thing as a low SP player. I've played for years and would still be able to use this feature at max efficiency, just not on this character. All players can do it, just not on high SP characters.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5053 - 2015-10-26 22:25:59 UTC
Buying SP is BAD and you should feel BAD.
You REALLY need to not implement this. If you do, it turns EVE into an entirely pay to have SP game.

Do not want.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Verminah Helbain
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#5054 - 2015-10-26 23:38:52 UTC
Since i cba to go through all the pages atm i might as well just ask. Has ccp actually comentened on this any further on the last 180 pages or so?
Maraner
The Executioners
#5055 - 2015-10-27 01:20:39 UTC
Nope.

I think they are deciding who to throw under the bus. That or ask Mittens to come visit Iceland again
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5056 - 2015-10-27 01:32:26 UTC
Dror wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Dror wrote:
Mag's wrote:
So I called it correctly. A PR exercise, but it's still a done deal.

It's actually great news, as now I know what was wrong from the start. Apart from the idea that is.

..Which is?
8.46 am.
.."Was a problem from the start"
Yea it was, I'm glad you noticed as well.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Devasha Detrasha
Doomheim
#5057 - 2015-10-27 04:57:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Answer this one then.

When are you gonna resign from CCP?


Lol so mad.

Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.



So arguably the best game ever made is gonna be turn into another pay2win ripoff? I see sad times ahead for this once upon a time outstanding game.
Dave Stark
#5058 - 2015-10-27 05:57:20 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Buying SP is BAD and you should feel BAD.
You REALLY need to not implement this. If you do, it turns EVE into an entirely pay to have SP game.

Do not want.


You're already paying to have sp
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#5059 - 2015-10-27 07:03:51 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Etara Silverblade wrote:
It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.

From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.

It was smart but not enough. TwistedTwisting facts not gonna work. There is a bunch of people who want that change. Too bad if you want to mislead people by false facts on purpose.


Where is there arguments for what this will solve? The main thrust of their arguments seem to be that we already have the bazaar, so in essence they are arguing that there will be no change.

The dev blog laid out what they feel like is a problem, I do not agree that it is, but even if it is the solution seems to be a resculpt + rename feature.

I think this change will be bad for the game, it will make the most powerful more powerful, it will make spying even more trivial than it is already. It will disenfranchise a number of players I know that have a lot of investment into their characters. I have a few brand new players playing and they are also against this change, they seem to feel like it is trivializing plans they have already laid out, and will make the game "grindy"

I would love for seagull to come onto this thread and explain why she thinks this feature is important for the future of eve.
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5060 - 2015-10-27 08:30:55 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:


...

Where is there arguments for what this will solve? The main thrust of their arguments seem to be that we already have the bazaar, so in essence they are arguing that there will be no change.

...



That's the point. When this cash grab is already implemented, and CCP starts thinking about selling single "core" skills for real money, the same people will ask you where the problem is, because you are already able to buy SP for $. Its a downward spiral.