Warfare & Tactics

if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem?

All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower.

If you're in the system they are.

If you cover every plex.

Dock up and take a break, they come back. You chase them out. They come back. Manage to kill them and they'll be back in a stabbed ship and plexing again in minutes.

Go for a roam? For every minute you're gone, that's another minute you have to deplex when you get back.

They determine warzone control. The only thing the rest of their militia has to do is show up and siege ihubs to hit higher tiers, which increases the number of farmers.

Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers.

That's not going to happen, and worthless farmers gonna farm.

Bolded the important part. Nothing will ever change this in eve.

Put Simply FW farming is an ISK sink in Eve and something that eve sorely needs TBH as isk is now easier than ever to accumulate.

Farmers may have been 'influential' in campaigns but farmers by definition don't engage in the conflict. Like Crosi mentions if Alts are used strategically then are they 'farmers' or tools of war?

Lets face it despite the fact that there seems to be a bigger number of whiners in EVE nowadays FW is probably the best version that it ever has been. It can be easily accessed by low sp players able to fund their pvp easily and it can be used by vets to get more of an elite pvp experience seeing as the skill lvl of the pvper's in FW is generally the highest in game IMO.

If we had rollbacks and real time intel on where plexes were being hit, 7-10 active organized pvpers could cover the entire amarr warzone. Each pvper could cover a section and they could effectively make sure most plexes were not captured without a fight. It would not be long before rabbit plexing was so inefficient, it would disappear. Faction war sov would finally be fixed.

Of course both militias would have more than that number covering the warzone and the pvp per plex would skyrocket.




What engagement envelope do people who fly empty frigates have? What about those who fit stabs? You see people fit their ship the most effective way they can, for what they want to accomplish. If they want to win sov in null sec they do not fit stabs or fly empty ships. If they want to win sov in faction war they do. Why? Because of ccp's design decisions.

CCP can and should make the mechanics in faction war such that people who plex expect they will need to pvp in order to gain space. That is what the 2 changes they promised, would do. But they still have not implemented them.



You have a very null sec mindset. In null sec this sort of works because it is entirely player based so the people who fight for a small bit of space don’t need to share it with the rest of new eden. Faction war will never be that way. Anyone can join the factions and reap the rewards that a small number of players create. That is why there really isn’t much gain to holding your own system/constellation in faction war. Yes you can dock. Big deal leave faction war and you can dock there too. If they gave faction war players some big advantages like anomalies in their upgraded systems like null sec guess what? 1) pirates could sit and dock in those systems and kill the ratters.

Well then lets say ccp gave faction war some faction war only systems where only they could dock. I still don’t think people would be very safe in low sec especially if they do the upcoming 4 way war. But lets assume it is as safe as null sec. People would just put alts in that faction farm the anomalies that others earned. Unlike null sec sov players can't purge parasites out of faction war. Once you understand these inherent limitations you will see that faction war needs to go in a different direction.

Applying the null sec view of “let me keep my little bit of space” is doomed when applied to faction war. CCP needs to understand these limitations. But faction war is not just limited due to this. Since the consequences in fw are not as large as losing space in null, CCP can make it so that faction war people can win sov much easier and quicker than what they need to do in null sec. They can make winning sov much more fun and involve much less drudgery. They could make it so the entire front is won by the side that is best at pvp of a variety of types. That is why Faction war has so much promise. Sadly they still have a design where the side that that fields the most rabbit plexers wins the most space. IMO that is drudgery.

Home systems are mostly safe from farmers, but that doesn't mean that farmers don't have an effect on home systems. Once one side has most of the systems, the active pvpers have fewer places to go to find the fights they're looking for. When it's just the home systems things get dicey.

Propaganda?

1. Spending time in a quiet system guarding the plexes against farmers is not the way most people are going to play the game

2. But they do get the system from 0% to 95-100% No militia can hold back the tide of farmers.

Do you think busting the bunker is the hard part? 5 minutes to bust the bunker, vs the endless hours capturing 166+ plexes. Hell, I've soloed bunkers faster than I could capture a large plex.

Anyone that doesn't think the farmers are a problem, is

A. Profiting from their 'work'
B. A farmer

The plexes need to be harder, hard enough that a noob character in a crap ship can't solo them. We also need rollbacks on the timer, and for the npcs to disappear when an enemy warps in. If a rabbit flees, his work should be undone.

If that hurts the noobs, tough. They can team up with another noob and do the plexes. You don't see day old untrained alts complaining that they can't do incursions or sanctums/havens/level 4 missions.

I am one of the few who ever gives data in these discussions. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to take a look at ccp's api dump. Look at the top vp gainers for faction for the week and then look at their killboard for the week. Of course people who don't mind rabbit plexing, say all those plexes rabbits run don't matter. But they are simply wrong. There is a huge amount of plexes being run in empty figates and stabbed ships. And forcing them to put guns on their ship or forcing them not to use stabs won't really stem the tide. They are fitting stabs because rabbit plexing is the most efficient way to get sov. Until that changes they will just use other evasion techniques and tools.

CCP is aware of the data as well - or at least they used to be. That is why they said they would give us timer rollbacks and better intel tools.



1) Who cares about intel that a person is in a system? That tells us almost nothing. It's clear that in order to reduce the effectiveness of rabbits we need better intel tools. Specifically I think we need to get real time intel of where plex timers are running.

I don't know what you mean by "free" intel. I don't care if we have to pay for it or if it comes free. If you have to buy an implant or something that gives this intel its fine with me. But either way players need this intel.

I don't think the rats in the plexes should be harder. That would just force pve fits and discourage fights. CCP should just give players the tools they need to defend their space.

2) See Templar's comment. Destroying an ihub is miniscule compared to the work of getting the system vulnerable.




Faction war has been out for about 7 years. And rabbit plexing is still the most effective way to gain sov. I think its time to admit the tools we have are not sufficient.


If it makes you feel better you can blame the players for playing the game effectively for their ends. But that is not about to change. So unless ccp wants sov to forever be won by rabbits they need to change the mechanics.

Simple fact is that you can never force people to fight who don't want to fight outside of catching the unwary or careless.

This is as it should be.

I'm pretty certain I don't have a null mindset as I've never spent much time there apart from a bit of exploration but I have spent time in FW since it was introduced and it by far the best system it has ever been for being a place to be able engage in casual pvp at all skill levels and still fund yourself without the need for hours of grinding for isk.

In reality there is more than enough intel tool available if you want to find stuff out. Just takes a little teen tiny bit of effort to get it. Once again as it should be.

Really people....farmers farm everywhere in eve yet the biggest whiners are FW player who think they have a monopoly on how you should play in FW.

Get over it

Nobody is saying someone should be forced to fight. But those who never fight should not be the best at winning sov.



No you can't and you never could. If you want to gain sov then you are best off getting several alt accounts and rabbit plexing. Those are the people who gain the most vp.



Like I already said, there will be people who like the idea that the most effective way to win sov is to get multiple alts and have them rabbit plex. I however am of the opinion that more people would enjoy faction war sov, if it was better done by fighting as opposed to running.

I would also point out that FW is the only place where you actually take over the other sides sov by farming. Constantly running and never fighting is actually the most effective way to gain sov in faction war. That is why faction war sov is seen as a joke by most people who are familiar with it.



False dichotomy. I would like CCP to implement the 2 changes I already mentioned. 1) rollbacks 2) real time intel on where plexes are beign run. Structure grinds have nothing to do with either.


With the 2 changes each side would only need 7-12 active pilots to eradicate the rabbits. Also few actively participate because FW sov is broken. Once it is fixed more people will participate.


Locking down a single in the current mechanic is very boring. And they will just plex around you. Thats why no one cares to even try to win sov in the majority of the systems.

CCP said they would do the changes to fix faction war. I waited about a year and took a break. I would still like it if they fixed faction war.

A lot of pilots left because they didn't want to chase stabbed frigates all day long.

While you may be able to lock down an entire system yourself, we have 70 systems that need to be locked down and 100 pilots in our militia chat. 5 of those are me.

Expecting an entire militia to spread out and cover systems, a great number of which are quiet and aren't going to see any action, in order to counter a buttload of random untrained alts in worthless ships from random people that aren't coordinating (and don't need to be) is simply outrageous.