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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5021 - 2015-10-26 13:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it).

Question What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that?

If "prestige" has meaning how much time you invested in your character then I see the only way - count months of subscription.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5022 - 2015-10-26 13:20:19 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms.

This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll

Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build “deep, meaningful, long-term relationships” [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendor’s Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a company’s identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14].

I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!!

The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value.


What other game have you played that incorporates a primary PVP enviroment with secondary effect PVE activity or pure PVP, Give me an example of your vast gaming experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5023 - 2015-10-26 13:38:24 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms.

This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll

Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build “deep, meaningful, long-term relationships” [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendor’s Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a company’s identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14].

I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!!

The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value.


What other game have you played that incorporates a primary PVP enviroment with secondary effect PVE activity or pure PVP, Give me an example of your vast gaming experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.


There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.

"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5024 - 2015-10-26 13:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms.

This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll

Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build “deep, meaningful, long-term relationships” [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendor’s Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a company’s identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14].

I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!!

The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value.


What other game have you played that incorporates a primary PVP enviroment with secondary effect PVE activity or pure PVP, Give me an example of your vast gaming experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.


There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.

"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.


WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms
You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage.
I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.

Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5025 - 2015-10-26 14:03:39 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.

"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.


WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms
You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage.
I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.

Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted.

Then do us all a favor and stop trying to base the greatness of SP on whether or not some games have leveling.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5026 - 2015-10-26 14:17:33 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.

"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.


WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms
You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage.
I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.

Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted.

Then do us all a favor and stop trying to base the greatness of SP on whether or not some games have leveling.

im still waiting on your revalation of knowledge ....... Give me just 1that will be fine.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5027 - 2015-10-26 14:46:55 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.

"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.


WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms
You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage.
I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.

Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted.

Then do us all a favor and stop trying to base the greatness of SP on whether or not some games have leveling.

im still waiting on your revalation of knowledge ....... Give me just 1that will be fine.

i Didnt even see this Gem :

Dror wrote:
There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5028 - 2015-10-26 15:02:26 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
i Didnt even see this Gem :

Dror wrote:
There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition.

Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5029 - 2015-10-26 15:09:19 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i Didnt even see this Gem :

Dror wrote:
There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition.

Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it?

You need a baseline reference point to infer a failing of subject A over subject b since you have no point of reference to start with all corresponding theories fail.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5030 - 2015-10-26 15:17:22 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i Didnt even see this Gem :

Dror wrote:
There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition.

Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it?

You need a baseline reference point to infer a failing of subject A over subject b since you have no point of reference to start with all corresponding theories fail.

That's not how game design functions. That's like saying 3D games should've failed because they weren't developed yet.

The reference point of SP failing is the low PCU vs all of the information we have on subscription trends for MMOs and on game design and monetization philosophies. I could list a page of reasons why SP is a low-quality design, but you apparently can't support it for any of them.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5031 - 2015-10-26 15:39:27 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i Didnt even see this Gem :

Dror wrote:
There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition.

Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it?

You need a baseline reference point to infer a failing of subject A over subject b since you have no point of reference to start with all corresponding theories fail.

That's not how game design functions. That's like saying 3D games should've failed because they weren't developed yet.

The reference point of SP failing is the low PCU vs all of the information we have on subscription trends for MMOs and on game design and monetization philosophies. I could list a page of reasons why SP is a low-quality design, but you apparently can't support it for any of them.

Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5032 - 2015-10-26 15:49:01 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint.

What? The amount in the PC gaming demographic has been increasing as well.. You're saying that just because the game has had some amount of a positive sub trend that SP is fine, and that's just as empty of a statement as saying SP is awful only because of the PCU trend (there are plenty more reasons to criticize it that actually have to do with gameplay).

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5033 - 2015-10-26 15:55:24 UTC
Shut up Dror! SP isn't going anywhere so everything you're saying is irrelevant.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#5034 - 2015-10-26 15:56:01 UTC
what if they implement some way to get an small bonus if you play the game? (idk) ?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5035 - 2015-10-26 16:17:48 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint.

What? The amount in the PC gaming demographic has been increasing as well.. You're saying that just because the game has had some amount of a positive sub trend that SP is fine, and that's just as empty of a statement as saying SP is awful only because of the PCU trend (there are plenty more reasons to criticize it that actually have to do with gameplay).


If you would of said at year 1 / 2 that the sub retention was dropping i may have agreed on your skillpoint arguement, but seeing as subs continously rose from year 1 to year 9/10 then it has nothing at all to do with the skillpoint mechanic but another game intervention.
Cross platform free game models has had a massive impact on the gaming demographic, unfortunatly EvE connot be used on tablets - phones - 80% laptops.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
#5036 - 2015-10-26 18:04:42 UTC
It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.

From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5037 - 2015-10-26 18:08:02 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint.

What? The amount in the PC gaming demographic has been increasing as well.. You're saying that just because the game has had some amount of a positive sub trend that SP is fine, and that's just as empty of a statement as saying SP is awful only because of the PCU trend (there are plenty more reasons to criticize it that actually have to do with gameplay).


If you would of said at year 1 / 2 that the sub retention was dropping i may have agreed on your skillpoint arguement, but seeing as subs continously rose from year 1 to year 9/10 then it has nothing at all to do with the skillpoint mechanic but another game intervention.
Cross platform free game models has had a massive impact on the gaming demographic, unfortunatly EvE connot be used on tablets - phones - 80% laptops.

It just seems shallow to say that because the game has had subs that there's no problem with SP. It's an extrinsic motivator, and it reduces intrinsic motivation options.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
LancashireUK
R.O.S.A.
#5038 - 2015-10-26 18:08:57 UTC
It sounds good for those who may have stopped playing for a while and may have missed some skills, and good for new players to get into the game a little more quickly. However, as you can now buy ISK and other items with real money it will turn this game more into P2W. Yes you can buy everything with real money now but you have to take time to plan, train and learn.

I loved the idea of the training time as it helped prepare you for when you finally got your new or better ability, and left you waiting with excitement for it to finish, rather than just rushing in and ruining the experience.

Some ideas I think are better;


  1. We have three character slots on our account. Let us use them and train three characters at the same time, or reduce the extortionate costs to do so now .
  2. Character rename - Please let us have a character rename.
  3. Can we roll EVE back a couple of years Big smile

talkGEEK || The Volition Cult
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5039 - 2015-10-26 18:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Etara Silverblade wrote:
It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.

From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.

It was smart but not enough. TwistedTwisting facts not gonna work. There is a bunch of people who want that change. Too bad if you want to mislead people by false facts on purpose.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#5040 - 2015-10-26 18:20:55 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong.


you are aware you're talking about a company that created a game that has survived for over 12 years (i think we're at 12 years now aren't we?), that doesn't happen by accident.

You are so out of touch it really is scary.

You can't seriously believe half of what you type here and expect others to swallow it.

Online statistics show. CCP is doing a wonderful job, they don't make mistakes that end up with players giving up and leaving. They have never made a mistake that caused a riot in the main trade hub of the game.

Subscriptions levels are at an all time high - There is so much content no-one has to spend hours or even days flying around completely empty systems (that were 12 months ago active places to get fights).

New Icons developed for a technology a minority use - That still look like crap on a 1080P monitor. Cruisers and battle cruisers, frigates and destroyers - Yes they have different icons - The dev blog says so - Though you would be hard pushed to tell them apart in game, without a magnifying glass.
New map that is so overwhelmingly colourful it is all but unusable (pretty is not functional) - Scanning with it is a nightmare, unless of course you turn off all effects - Thankfully the map dev team is smart enough to realize their mistake and didn't remove a map that just works. One does have to wonder why the Beta map is still there, when it should have been removed until game ready (if ever).

Rapid missile launchers - You really want to go there? I'm happy to, just let me know.

Put your head back up where ever it came from ( I can only guess reading some of the drivel you've posted) and stop talking shite.
Over my 8 years playing Eve, I have seen the good the bad and recently, quite ugly side of what passes for game development at CCP.

Lie to yourself and the uninformed all you like, just don't try to lie to those who actually play the game.




you're welcome to not like half the changes that have been made in your 8 year career as a capsuleer - the fact remains EVE has stood the test of time where other MMOs have come along, gone free to play, and died in a corner.

again; that doesn't happen by accident.

i'm not going to sit here and pretend CCP are perfect and have never done anything wrong, but to pretend that having a game that has spanned 12 years is a fluke - you're out of your mind.