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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

First post First post
Author
Chirality Tisteloin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#341 - 2015-10-26 10:09:31 UTC
Expanding on the fleet-wide tactical overview idea:

Make the coodinate system unique for all fleet members on grid. Origin of the tactical overlay coordinate system is anchored by the FC. Give fleet members the possibility to opt out and reanchor the tactical overlay on their own ship again.

Give the FC the ability to broadcast basic markers in the tactical overview. This would allow them to command things like: "Light tackle, burn me a perch here" (a blue marker appears at a point on the overview). "Logi, position in this area." (a green arrow appears). "Firewall ships, put up firewall on this plane" (two red lines, spanning a plane in space appear).... Maybe markers could even be shared between FCs by dragging them to a chat (but, then... spais! :) ).

If markers seem OP, maybe using coordinates are more challenging. "Dictors, burn towards 60° (bearing) / -40° (elevation) in 60clicks distance and cloak up." For this the tactical overview could get a simple ruler tool.

See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/

Tau Phoenix
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#342 - 2015-10-26 10:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Phoenix
Some intersting ideas in this dev blog and it is good that CCP realise that currently the Capital ship has little value to game play in the current climate. Whilst most ideas seem to have a valid point and i can see advantages i am concerned that the bread and butter capital, the Carrier, will be reduced to an oversized burden of a ship, especially given the potential new logistacal capitals.

Owning a capital and planning its movements within the game is a task that on its own needs planning in order to work out the requirements to have the ship in place without to much Jump Fatigue. Whilst having a new logistics capital is exciting i do not think that the logistical attribute of a carrier fitted for the task should be removed....in fact this is an oportunity to have the new logistis capital but also keep carrier able to fit logistics modules...just ensure that are not as effective as the dedicated capital class logistcs.

This also gives the game more choice in logistic planning. I think you need to keep the carriers ability to rep in battle, just to a lesser extent of the dedicated logistics capital.

Maybe of topic but whilst we are talking about capitals, will CCP give bonus to Jump Fatigue reduction for jumping capitals in the sov that you own? That would also stimulate more local capital movements.
Zduhac Aldent
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2015-10-26 11:09:25 UTC
Everyone is whining,but i think ccp will listen to your whining and make dread do at least 5000dps to sub capitals in siege.
I personaly like changes because i always thought that heaving a capital is bad thing because you will only use it in specific situations and it will be more like jump in,fire ,get out ,repeat but now carriers get new gameplay as do dreads as do titans so now you can have specific fun with every capital and about lowering EHP on capitals i think its a good thing since if it lowers their base EHP it will also lower their price so we will see more capitals in fights,only thing im consirned with is being able to ECM capitals,and titan DD might be gamebreaking if they dont make it right
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#344 - 2015-10-26 11:10:06 UTC
ccplease!
NO CAPITAL SCRAMS!
Seriously, are you insane? Who has even came up with this idea? Do you understand why HICs cannot receive reps, and dictors have like 10k EHP? This design is done on purpose - do you understand this purpose? Because to me it seems that you dont. You suggest a ~capital hic~ that thas millions of EHP, can be repped, has a huge sensor strength and a jump-drive on top of that. Freaking genius!

Alright, I'll give you a clue about that old design purpose.
Fielding a super-capital fleet is a big risk. Especially for an underdog. That risk becomes manageable if you have a support fleet that can clear tackle if something goes wrong. So people take that risk and then something goes wrong, and than it goes hugely wrong - and titans die.

With ~capital hics~
1. The risk becomes overwhelming, unless you're in PL/NCdot or CFC. Means less groups will use their capships. Means more rifter gangs! (I guess it was your design goal, right?)
2. Support fleets become mostly irrelevant in capital fight. Oh wait, those fights will not happen anyway.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#345 - 2015-10-26 11:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Quote:
Under the Citadel expansion’s capital changes, the bar to killing capitals is limited to what a single Force Auxiliary in Triage can tank. If you can kill that, eventually you can kill the entire capital fleet...assuming you can stay alive and keep them tackled (smile)
So does this mean, only 1 Force Auxiliary can be active in a capital fleet at a time?
How many capitals is it expected 1 force auxiliary capital in triage can rep?
What is to stop the largest groups from having multiple Force Auxiliary ships on standby to jump in as each one dies?
Or more likely, stop them fielding multiple small fleets each with its own.

Or is the wording in the blog just very vague and meaningless?

Quote:
Force Auxiliary Capitals will also have Fleet hangars Ship hangars, and refitting abilities to all their fleet mates like any other capital.
Isn't this a little pointless if your adding no refitting during aggression timers?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#346 - 2015-10-26 11:30:17 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Quote:
Under the Citadel expansion’s capital changes, the bar to killing capitals is limited to what a single Force Auxiliary in Triage can tank. If you can kill that, eventually you can kill the entire capital fleet...assuming you can stay alive and keep them tackled (smile)
So does this mean, only 1 Force Auxiliary can be active in a capital fleet at a time?
How many capitals is it expected 1 force auxiliary capital in triage can rep?
What is to stop the largest groups from having multiple Force Auxiliary ships on standby to jump in as each one dies?
Or more likely, stop them fielding multiple small fleets each with its own.


It's fairly obvious.

Provided you can hold tackle, it doesn't matter if they have 1, or 100 FAX ships, if you can kill one, you can ~eventually~ kill all the capital reps and thus the entire enemy fleet.

Because they can only rep in triage and in triage they are limited to local tank only - overwhelm that and they will all die, one at a time.

As opposed to today, where 300 archons can all spider as one unit and you'd need to either a) alpha the caps or b) out DPS 300 archons worth of non-triaged reps.
Grey one
EU Borg Collective
#347 - 2015-10-26 11:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey one
I suggest that High Angle Weapon Batteries damage should not depend on being in siege (or have a very small dependence).
They role shoud be the defence against supcaps not only when you are in siege but during the travel (through the gates) too.

The idea to group the fighters sounds strange. It might be good from the point of role-play (to have some 5 squads per 5 fighters), but it is not clear yet how to maintain it and how good it would be from the point of the server.
If every fighter in squad should be replaced separately their cost in minerals should be greatly redused.

As for new weapos for titans i would strongly suggest that they are to be build-in. And to use one the titan must change the mode (like tactical destroyers do).
Luscius Uta
#348 - 2015-10-26 11:46:24 UTC
I don't like most of the changes.

While I agree that Carriers are the swiss army knife of EVE, since they can be ultimate drone boats (with potentially near-endless supply of them), provide good repairs even when not in triage, can be used for refitting in the heat of battle, store other ships and can even be used to move your ships and assets around, splitting Combat Carriers and Logistics Carriers is about the only good thing that will come from these changes (I also think that more thought should be put into naming the new Force Auxilliary ships - my suggestion is "Capital Projection Ships").

Removal of EWAR immunity is really bad. I loathe at the idea of Dreads and Titans being tracking disrupted, sensor dampened or jammed since they already have terrible tracking and scan resolution (goodbye blap dreads). The only problem of EWAR immunity in its current form is that you need a special class of ship to point a super. Giving them a warp strength of 20-50 as proposed in the blog is one way to fix it. Another way would be to make officer scrams, points and webs affect supers. This would be balanced not only due to their high cost but also due to their high powergrid requirements, making the choice of ships that can fit them very limited. Also in one of the posts, a dev mentioned 40% webs, yet the weakest webs have a strength of 50%. Even in a hypothetical situation, I expect to see valid, realistic numbers and not something that dev pulled out of his ass, showing his lack of knowledge of the game he is in charge of changing.

Being unable to refit with a weapons timer will also limit much of Marauder usage in PvE (since Bastion also gives you a weapons timer and I tend to have a depot next to my Vargur), something that I'm sure nobody in the dev team thought of.

T2 capital modules will negatively affect market for metalevel modules - those who can be built exclusively with blueprints purchased in Concord LP stores. But I guess that's one way to give Incursions much needed nerf.

Also, does intorduction of anti-subcap guns for Dreads means that we shall finally see Rapid Cruise Launchers for The Phoenix (something that some of us desire so much)?

New doomsdays: I would keep them a single module, but make them use ammunition, just like you can put all kind of bombs in a single bomb launcher. This ammunition should have large volume (1000 m^3/unit at least)to prevent putting too many of it in a single Titan.

That's all I can think of for now, though I haven't read much posts in this thread (except for the dev ones).

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Senjiu Kanuba
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#349 - 2015-10-26 11:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Senjiu Kanuba
I like most, if not all, of these changes. I'm definitely looking forward to it.

There's one thing I'm a bit worried about though. By limiting the dps that can be applied to citadels you might discourage the use of capital ships. If the dps is limited to, let's say, 30k for mediums then it would make no sense for a 50man fleet to bring capitals, they might as well bring a fleet of battlecruisers and shoot it with T1 ammo.
So basically, it comes down to getting the right numbers for all that stuff.

Senjiu

And to answer some of the concerns: I've never had to refit my Golem, so... I don't really care about marauders wanting to refit while in bastion. If you don't have the fitting you want to use, well, refit before the fight. Be prepared. Think about what you do before you do it. I think it's good that capitals can't refit in combat easily, or, if they want to, they have to stop attacking / remote repping for 30sec or 1min or whatever time to chose for that.
The same goes with different modules for different doomsday effects: Think about what you want to use before jumping into battle. I thought that in general, capital pilots should have a bit more experience and put a bit more thought into what they do than subcap pilots. And subcap pilots go into the fight with a certain fitting, it is very rare (meaning I have yet to see it) that a subcap pilot refits during a fight to adapt to what he faces. Try to be at least that good with your capitals (and I get that the strategies of refitting were useful because capital fights tend to go a bit longer and there is actual time to refit another layer of tank, I don't think it's that negative that this won't be possible in the future, at least not as easily - and you can still refit if you don't attack and only local rep for a minute or so).
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#350 - 2015-10-26 12:00:30 UTC
Why are you removing the facility of fighters/squadrons to warp after their host carrier ?

I would have thought that would be of more use after this expansion, seeing as you have stated that fights can happen a very long way from the host carrier.

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#351 - 2015-10-26 12:00:57 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Another way would be to make officer scrams, points and webs affect supers. This would be balanced not only due to their high cost but also due to their high powergrid requirements, making the choice of ships that can fit them very limited...

Limited to capships.
Chessur freaking rice! How can you people be so short-sighted?
If only you allow capships to tackle other supers - everything goes nuts. Support fleets will mean nothing. The biggest blob will dominate without a single chance for a little guy. Eve will become even more polarized. Capital fights will not happen. Do you want to be a part of that game? I dont.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#352 - 2015-10-26 12:01:18 UTC
Instead of fixing the system that has worked for 10+ years their throwing it all out and making changes for the sake of changes.

Seagull is bound and determined to think outside of the box which is commendable but I'm not sure you can pull this off.

Not a chance in hell these changes make into a spring release.

Not today spaghetti.

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#353 - 2015-10-26 12:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Not a chance in hell these changes make into a spring release.

You forget: this is Team Fozzie. These changes go live no matter what.
Luscius Uta
#354 - 2015-10-26 12:19:58 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
Another way would be to make officer scrams, points and webs affect supers. This would be balanced not only due to their high cost but also due to their high powergrid requirements, making the choice of ships that can fit them very limited...

Limited to capships.
Chessur freaking rice! How can you people be so short-sighted?
If only you allow capships to tackle other supers - everything goes nuts. Support fleets will mean nothing. The biggest blob will dominate without a single chance for a little guy. Eve will become even more polarized. Capital fights will not happen. Do you want to be a part of that game? I dont.



Wrong, Battleships have enough PG to fit officer scrams/points/webs easily, I've seen several Bhaalgorns with officer webs, and even a Loki with one.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#355 - 2015-10-26 12:35:54 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Not a chance in hell these changes make into a spring release.

You forget: this is Team Fozzie. These changes go live no matter what.


only if it screws wspace :P

So Much Space

fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2015-10-26 12:49:41 UTC
Dear CCP,

these changes seem exciting, escpecially the Titan related changes and how you handle fighters.

There is ONE BIG THING, that was not addressed:


  1. Jump portal generators


One of the major differences between the small and the big guys is the ability of being able to bridge your forces. Or being able to help your logistics efforts by bridge-ing.
The reason is simple: a Titan is a good 100+fit+character. Let's say, to get your hands on a Titan, one needs ~200bill ISK. You can see how that could be problematic to small entities.

With the changes of SOV and power projection, we can see the rise of small empires, eg. in Fountain, but really all over the map.

Request:

Please make use of Jump Portal Generators available for those who has no access to hundreds of billions, either on a dedicated platform or maybe on the proposed new Force Aux capitals.

I can imagine simple limitations to it so that Titan bridges also have a place: eg. limiting the amount of fuel it's platform can store, the size of force it can project can easily be limited. This Titan bridge for bigger, more established entities has a place.

Thanks!

.

Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON.
Get Off My Lawn
#357 - 2015-10-26 12:52:05 UTC
fenistil wrote:
Dear CCP,

these changes seem exciting, escpecially the Titan related changes and how you handle fighters.

There is ONE BIG THING, that was not addressed:


  1. Jump portal generators


One of the major differences between the small and the big guys is the ability of being able to bridge your forces. Or being able to help your logistics efforts by bridge-ing.
The reason is simple: a Titan is a good 100+fit+character. Let's say, to get your hands on a Titan, one needs ~200bill ISK. You can see how that could be problematic to small entities.

With the changes of SOV and power projection, we can see the rise of small empires, eg. in Fountain, but really all over the map.

Request:

Please make use of Jump Portal Generators available for those who has no access to hundreds of billions, either on a dedicated platform or maybe on the proposed new Force Aux capitals.

I can imagine simple limitations to it so that Titan bridges also have a place: eg. limiting the amount of fuel it's platform can store, the size of force it can project can easily be limited. This Titan bridge for bigger, more established entities has a place.

Thanks!



oh Dear..
If you all are willing to put it together you will get your titan, with char etc. für 140-160bil..
And a single person can easily farm 1-2bil a day.. do a few weeks a corp / alliance op and here you got your titan..
EVE is about the teamplay...

Monasucks Tumblr

Twitter

"A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead."

Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#358 - 2015-10-26 13:12:38 UTC
fenistil wrote:
Dear CCP,

these changes seem exciting, escpecially the Titan related changes and how you handle fighters.

There is ONE BIG THING, that was not addressed:


  1. Jump portal generators


One of the major differences between the small and the big guys is the ability of being able to bridge your forces. Or being able to help your logistics efforts by bridge-ing.
The reason is simple: a Titan is a good 100+fit+character. Let's say, to get your hands on a Titan, one needs ~200bill ISK. You can see how that could be problematic to small entities.

With the changes of SOV and power projection, we can see the rise of small empires, eg. in Fountain, but really all over the map.

Request:

Please make use of Jump Portal Generators available for those who has no access to hundreds of billions, either on a dedicated platform or maybe on the proposed new Force Aux capitals.

I can imagine simple limitations to it so that Titan bridges also have a place: eg. limiting the amount of fuel it's platform can store, the size of force it can project can easily be limited. This Titan bridge for bigger, more established entities has a place.

Thanks!




Do you know how the first alliance made the first titan? They worked hard. they did not beg CCP to change the game to let them do something others can do without all the hard work.
Aves Asio
#359 - 2015-10-26 13:15:35 UTC
All the changes look too much gimmicky. I'm not a capital pilot but it was something i was looking forward to, i guess ill just stick to subcaps...
Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#360 - 2015-10-26 13:31:02 UTC
So will T2 Cap ship module BPO's be inventable, or will we need to run drifter incursions to get the concord LP as they the only supplier of BPC? What?

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı