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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#321 - 2015-10-26 06:12:29 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
On the HAW tracking:

I believe it should be closer to cruiser level ish tracking speeds.... battleships (or even tier 3 battlecruisers) are not renowned for shooting frigates on the move...

I think the idea is that dreads even at their best also can't track and shoot frigates without support.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#322 - 2015-10-26 06:37:53 UTC
Grorious Reader wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
...It will be hard to get anything bigger than a medium in C4s and down, since you will need to build them in your WH...


You have a source for that? Don't think I've seen any numbers for the packaged volume of citadels.

It was answer to a question asked in the stream. They specifically stated that Large and XLs need a freighter to deploy. ie larger than 60000m3

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
William M Blazkowicz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#323 - 2015-10-26 06:42:26 UTC
Everything in this update sounds good and all - I just don't agree with the HP reduction part.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#324 - 2015-10-26 06:43:05 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
After sleeping with it. I'd actually prefer each individual fighter to have its own HP, like fighters in homeworld do: we choose squad, target squad, and they all end up shooting one of the hostile squad, but they can choose a different one and so multiple fighters can take damage at a time. Also, AOE.
And yeah, cost.

P. S. and yeah, I think it actually looks better now when you allowed refitting to everyone, than to remove it completely. Caps still get killed, just leave it as is.

If you haven't worked it out yet, probably 90% of the reason to group fighters into squads and have the server treat them as a single entity is TiDi. It is 5-12 times less drones to track. Hence you may even have a large cap fight without tidi even.

Of course there is the bubbles that still tidi things a bit.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#325 - 2015-10-26 06:50:14 UTC
Fishymonster wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Fishymonster wrote:
...You are also removing fighter-bombers from the game, im sure the people that trained fighters up to level 5 just for the ability to use fighter-bombers will greatly appreciate that.

No, Fighter bombers aren't going away. They'll probably come under the Heavy Fighter category. We're actually adding new types of fighter, rather than removing any.

So now if a carrier pilot wants to do DPS to anything other than frigates/drones/other fighter squadrons they will have to train a 3million SP skill up to 5 before they're allowed. Great design.

Or train for a fraction of the time to level 4 for only a 10% or is it 20% damage output hit. Yea lvl 5 skills are really overrated.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#326 - 2015-10-26 06:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawthorm
Great changes, long overdue! I was wondering however if any thought had been given to the use of Gecko drones and carriers? At the moment the carrier is the only ship with enough bandwidth to use a fair number of these. I highly doubt any consideration will be given to whats basically a limited item, but will the new force aux carriers provide sufficient bandwidth for these, and if not are there any plans to change the Gecko into a special fighter unit?
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#327 - 2015-10-26 06:59:49 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Dev Blog wrote:
the bar to killing capitals is limited to what a single Force Auxiliary in Triage can tank. If you can kill that, eventually you can kill the entire capital fleet...assuming you can stay alive and keep them tackled
Um, what changes, if I have N+1 Force Auxiliary ships in my fleet? Still N+1 gameplay, not that this is a bad thing. Many battles start with assumption that the other side has less, only later to discover that the other side has more friends.

Err no. If the only way to rep is with triage and you can't receive reps. Then no amount of FAX ships can increase your reaping power above what you get with local reps. So you start shooting FAX ships out of the gate unless your stupid.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#328 - 2015-10-26 08:04:05 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Fishymonster wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Fishymonster wrote:
...You are also removing fighter-bombers from the game, im sure the people that trained fighters up to level 5 just for the ability to use fighter-bombers will greatly appreciate that.

No, Fighter bombers aren't going away. They'll probably come under the Heavy Fighter category. We're actually adding new types of fighter, rather than removing any.

So now if a carrier pilot wants to do DPS to anything other than frigates/drones/other fighter squadrons they will have to train a 3million SP skill up to 5 before they're allowed. Great design.

Or train for a fraction of the time to level 4 for only a 10% or is it 20% damage output hit. Yea lvl 5 skills are really overrated.



I think he was moaning about fighter bombers potentially becoming needed for carrier pilots...at least that is the best I can make of it.

And if that were the case that is a bit of a PITA for a lot of people.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#329 - 2015-10-26 08:28:35 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
A question for (all of) you: Do you think that being able to deploy with a guarantee that you won't lose anything is healthy/good for the game? Not even high-sec makes that promise.
True, but then there never was that guarantee. The only thing that guaranteed that was that other player won't engage beyond a certain point (especially following B-R). It seems that this is more about making capitals less flexible (nice sandbox bro) at the same time as reducing their ability to hold their own. All it's likely to do is reduce their use even further and increase mass subcap blobs. At the end of the day, players are risk averse so they will take the option that offers the lowest chance and value of loss. Making their ships terrible won't fix that.

By the way, what genius came up with "let's bring back AOE doomsdays but let's make it more like WoW bosses"?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Monster Dude
Raging Angels
Red Alliance
#330 - 2015-10-26 08:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Monster Dude
CCP Phantom wrote:

Please remember: These are not finished designs and may change!


It is trully interesting that big changes for capitals are going to come. New classes and modules probably will bring more variations, setups.

However with an critical eye I want to note something.
1) In my opinion it is not good idea when "50 rifters can tackle titan"... In modern EVE there are no problems to tackle supers, we have special ships for that! Which means if you want to tackle one - you have to have devotion, be ready for it!!! Scenario like kitchen sink gang roaming here and there accidently crosses their way with super and tackling it only makes me rather sad. Because modern eve is no like that roaming will be fighting with it alone... those "50 rifters" will shout out loud to relevant people and then whole pack of killer whales will come on scene.
So my vote is for devotion! You want things like that - bother for proper ships for that. And lets still keep supers warp engines immune to ordinary points.

2) Nearly same applies to supers ehp/buffer/.. They all are killable right now, and taking into account how many of them in game, nerfing them might just lead to when supers fleets are clashing they will die just as fast as rifters are dying (aka no fun).
- You may say that too few supers are duying withing a month...
- I would answer reason for it not EHP at all. Long ago CCP taken away drones usage from supers... If supers could use drones - they would be used lot more (aka ratting) - and that would cause them to die lot lot more. Of course some adgustments are still would be needed e.g. if you are recieving remote reps - you can not control your drones/fighters...


3) Removing some ewar immunity is good though. E.g. if you could jamm supers - sounds good, but then again not with griffins please... Could it be made so that the bigger originator of jamms - the higher chance for it to work on super?
E.g. dummy example of modificators for ewar towards supers:
- frigate class: 0.5
- cruiser class: 1
- BS class: 2
- Capital: 3
when supers sensors level is still very high so that chances for cruisers for success are pretty low.
This approach would again bring more devotion and lead to more usage e.g. BlackOps's as ewar ships for such scenarios, or even capitals which is totally unexpected (aka LOL)
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#331 - 2015-10-26 09:00:09 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Fishymonster wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Fishymonster wrote:
...You are also removing fighter-bombers from the game, im sure the people that trained fighters up to level 5 just for the ability to use fighter-bombers will greatly appreciate that.

No, Fighter bombers aren't going away. They'll probably come under the Heavy Fighter category. We're actually adding new types of fighter, rather than removing any.

So now if a carrier pilot wants to do DPS to anything other than frigates/drones/other fighter squadrons they will have to train a 3million SP skill up to 5 before they're allowed. Great design.

Or train for a fraction of the time to level 4 for only a 10% or is it 20% damage output hit. Yea lvl 5 skills are really overrated.



I think he was moaning about fighter bombers potentially becoming needed for carrier pilots...at least that is the best I can make of it.

And if that were the case that is a bit of a PITA for a lot of people.

What? Supers should have them trained anyway. And carrier pilots? well i am not sure they will get heavies/bombers, at least it is not clear that they will get them to me.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Engelheim
Prima Gallicus
#332 - 2015-10-26 09:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Engelheim
These changes are very exciting and I'm very enthusiast about them.

However I have some concerns not regarding the changes in themselves but regarding the transition phase between the day prior and the day after.

I'm thinking specifically about the logistic capital role being transfered to a brand new ship.
Quoting from the devblog:

Quote:
Force Auxiliary Capitals will take over the remote repair role from Carriers. They will be the only class able to fit the Triage module and the only capital class with bonuses to remote repair modules.

This transfer means that all current "doctrines" using carrier as remote repair platform will become obsolete over night.
And it could take months before some players are able to adapt to the change.


We're talking about capital ship production here. It takes a lot longer to produce from scratch than subcaps.
Add to that the skilling for this new class and it could potentially mean several weeks even months without any capital remote repair option.

That is quite scary if you have assets to protect...

On top of that, it offers a potential lever for the bigger organisations as they will be the first ones to obtain these ships and potentially they would be able to delay the acquisition by applying some form of market pressure for the smaller groups.
In this kind of scenario, even if this would only mean a 1 or 2 weeeks delay for the smaller group, it would still be enough for the big fish to swipe assets easily.

So the question is: how does CCP plan to work on this transition phase? Will the new ship be released while actual carrier will still be able to remote rep or is there some other idea behind the transition period?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2015-10-26 09:15:38 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

What? Supers should have them trained anyway. And carrier pilots? well i am not sure they will get heavies/bombers, at least it is not clear that they will get them to me.



I don't disagree, was just the best I could make of that guys post (not yours). In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have bothered but my shitposting detector runs on caffeine and I'm short this morning.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2015-10-26 09:17:01 UTC
Engelheim wrote:
These changes are very exciting and I'm very enthusiast about them.

However I have some concerns not regarding the changes in themselves but regarding the transition phase between the day prior and the day after.

I'm thinking specifically about the logistic capital role being transfered to a brand new ship.
Quoting from the devblog:

Quote:
They will be the only class able to fit the Triage module and the only capital class with bonuses to remote repair modules.
This transfer means that all current "doctrines" using carrier as remote repair platform will become obsolete over night.
And it could take months before some players are able to adapt to the change.


We're talking about capital ship production here. It takes a lot longer to produce from scratch than subcaps.
Add to that the skilling for this new class and it could potentially mean several weeks even months without any capital remote repair option.

That is quite scary if you have assets to protect...

On top of that, it offers a potential lever for the bigger organisations as they will be the first ones to obtain these ships and potentially they would be able to delay the acquisition by applying some form of market pressure for the smaller groups.
In this kind of scenario, even if this would only mean a 1 or 2 weeeks delay for the smaller group, it would still be enough for the big fish to swipe assets easily.

So the question is: how does CCP plan to work on this transition phase? Will the new ship be released while actual carrier will still be able to remote rep or is there some other idea behind the transition period?


If only they'd said in the presentation they were well aware of this and would be discussing options......


Or even in the damned blog

Quote:
We understand that a lot of capsulers purchased their carrier as a logistics platform. We don't have defined plans for a transition between existing Carriers to the new Force Auxiliaries, but I can assure you it is on our radar, and we'll be announcing the transition plan with plenty of time for everyone to get ready.
Engelheim
Prima Gallicus
#335 - 2015-10-26 09:23:47 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Engelheim wrote:
These changes are very exciting and I'm very enthusiast about them.

However I have some concerns not regarding the changes in themselves but regarding the transition phase between the day prior and the day after.

I'm thinking specifically about the logistic capital role being transfered to a brand new ship.
Quoting from the devblog:

Quote:
They will be the only class able to fit the Triage module and the only capital class with bonuses to remote repair modules.
This transfer means that all current "doctrines" using carrier as remote repair platform will become obsolete over night.
And it could take months before some players are able to adapt to the change.


We're talking about capital ship production here. It takes a lot longer to produce from scratch than subcaps.
Add to that the skilling for this new class and it could potentially mean several weeks even months without any capital remote repair option.

That is quite scary if you have assets to protect...

On top of that, it offers a potential lever for the bigger organisations as they will be the first ones to obtain these ships and potentially they would be able to delay the acquisition by applying some form of market pressure for the smaller groups.
In this kind of scenario, even if this would only mean a 1 or 2 weeeks delay for the smaller group, it would still be enough for the big fish to swipe assets easily.

So the question is: how does CCP plan to work on this transition phase? Will the new ship be released while actual carrier will still be able to remote rep or is there some other idea behind the transition period?


If only they'd said in the presentation they were well aware of this and would be discussing options......


Or even in the damned blog

Quote:
We understand that a lot of capsulers purchased their carrier as a logistics platform. We don't have defined plans for a transition between existing Carriers to the new Force Auxiliaries, but I can assure you it is on our radar, and we'll be announcing the transition plan with plenty of time for everyone to get ready.




It's not just about the fact capsuleers as individuals trained for the remote carrier. It's about he fact it could bring a huge unbalance in powers of only for a few weeks in Sov/pos/moon warfare
Chirality Tisteloin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#336 - 2015-10-26 09:36:23 UTC
Moe Lesture wrote:

--- TACTICAL OVERLAY ---

Considering the tactical implications of the doomsdays and squadrons, i would add bearing and elevation indicators to the tactical overlay. Obviously everyones overlay will have an identical North, regardless of system so people can relay coordinates.


I like this idea! It would necessitate, however, that the origin of the coordinate system can be anchored to different points in space. Bearing, elevation and distance are only uniquely specifying a location if the two tactical overlays have the same North (rotation) AND the same origin (translation).

See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/
Royal Methodd
GHARRAFS
#337 - 2015-10-26 09:39:48 UTC
I just read the "REWORKING CAPITAL SHIPS: AND THUS IT BEGINS!" arcticle and I have to say very nice rework to begin with!

Would just like to add this to the rework of capital ships:

- Capital ships should spawn (after jumping) 10-15km away from each other.
- Capital ships (titans and supers) should be unbumpable. (exp. to industrials/transport/carriers)
- Refitting range should be set towards 15-20km range (since it will not be as viable at it used to be)

These changes only make the game look more cleaner and a bigger apple for the eye.

Royal.
Chirality Tisteloin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#338 - 2015-10-26 09:50:54 UTC
Darkwalker Star wrote:
I have a suggestion. A doomsday deflector module that can link to a friendly doomsday weapon, but only 1 at a time. By reflecting the energy back onto itself can reduce or prevent damage from that doomsday. This allows friendlies to stay on field and tackle hostiles. By taking up a module slot, causes some loss to offense but gains an offensive advantage being on field.


I would rather have something that warns friendlies in advance what is going to happen. So they can reposition and tackle from outside ground zero. Extend warmup time First half: show danger zone to friendlies only, second half: show everybody.

In addition, make the tactical overview coordinate system unique for the whole fleet (FC chooses anchorin point of coordinate system) and add bearing / elevation and distance rulers so that people can communicate locations.

See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2015-10-26 09:58:25 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Ilany wrote:
Great ideas - it will be interesting to see how this develops and whether it can actually cause a change in null sec.

  • Won't multiple squadrons of drones significantly increase lag?


  • Hopefully not. A squadron behaves as a single item in space - it has one position, one target, one set of stats etc. Much like a grouped missile represents up to 8 missiles as one. No ship will be able to launch more than 5 squadrons (though a carrier squadron might represent 4 fighters compared to a supercarrier squadron might represent 8) and so the number of objects in space that we have to track will actually go down as a result of these changes, even if your effective deployed ehp/dps might be higher.
    • As a squadron takes damage and its 'effective fighter count' goes down, then its damage output will also be stepped down accordingly.


I suggested this a while back for all all drones (i.e. the server views a group of drones launched from a single ship as one item). My reasoning is that i assumed it would reduce lag. Are normal drones going to be grouped rather than individual, in the future?

Also, would it be possible to add new ship based drone upgrades that gives a fighter/bomber wing the ability to local repair?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2015-10-26 10:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
"It is not impossible to refit...but you will have to wait out your weapons timer and, effectively, be out of the battle while you do so. We're considering adding a weapons timer to triage & siege modes...but we'd like your feedback on that."

I think it's enough that you have to sit there, under fire for 60 seconds, before you can equip yourself to fight back.

Will the cargo hold on dreads be increased enough to allow them to carry a full rack of extra large guns?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...