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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4961 - 2015-10-25 22:20:59 UTC
Dror wrote:
It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it.
"If we change something that's proof it's flawed and needs done away with" is not sound reasoning.

By this logic we wouldn't have much if a game left.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4962 - 2015-10-25 22:22:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it.
"If we change something that's proof it's flawed and needs done away with" is not sound reasoning.

By this logic we wouldn't have much if a game left.

So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4963 - 2015-10-25 22:28:09 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:

You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.

That's not fulfilling.

Try eve uni - If they can't sort you/new players out i dont think you will ever find what it is your seeking. Theres no quick fix in EvE you reap what you sow.

It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it.

Well some things are being addressed by whats been posted here, the whole skillpoint debacle is for the most part a grasping measure and with thought i really hope wont get passed, but its CCP - “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4964 - 2015-10-25 22:28:44 UTC
Dror wrote:
So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?
Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4965 - 2015-10-25 22:56:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?
Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated.

*Strawman*

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4966 - 2015-10-25 23:19:14 UTC
Dror wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?
Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated.

*Strawman*


Dror ive come to the conclusion your one of those glass is always half empty people, maybe one day you will find something that will lighten your load Blink

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
ISD Atomic Dove
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#4967 - 2015-10-26 00:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Atomic Dove
Good Afternoon,

I have removed several offtopic posts as well as personal attacks, please remember that when discussing on this forum not to attack the player voicing their ideas but rather debate their position on the subject.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4968 - 2015-10-26 00:38:31 UTC
Dror wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?
Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated.

*Strawman*
So you're saying you didn't say "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it?"

It looks like you did, thus critiquing your logic isn't a *strawman*
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4969 - 2015-10-26 01:01:23 UTC
very good way to loose subs,

just take all the SP away from your other accounts and place it all in to a toon
and come out with a 400SP toon never have to train again,and going to save load of money on subs which ccp will loose out, ccp will loose a lot of subs to why someone would need 4 or 5 accounts.

bad idea of ccp worse idea,
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4970 - 2015-10-26 01:05:10 UTC
Suede wrote:
very good way to loose subs,

just take all the SP away from your other accounts and place it all in to a toon
and come out with a 400SP toon never have to train again,and going to save load of money on subs which ccp will loose out, ccp will loose a lot of subs to why someone would need 4 or 5 accounts.

bad idea of ccp worse idea,

Why would someone combine alts at a 10% return while bearing the costs for hundreds of extractors to facilitate the transfers of the SP?

Worse, why would someone have enough decently trained alts to accommodate that and actually want to cripple them all?
Imagined Self
Illicit Expo
#4971 - 2015-10-26 01:09:32 UTC
At first I was excited... Im trying to catch up to the times and its impossible... the sp buying would be great to buy up some missed time and maybe have more an edge on my competitors, get me an edge in some pve and pvp, a few more cyno alts, a few more bombers, and even yea, miners... at least buff up the once I have already. The more I thought of it though, and after reading the dev blog, I feel this is totally manipulating the game perspective and feel. It isnt real anymore, cause I can simply buy sp... and add it to my accounts with no time. The curve idea, I get that... but really, now your like taking that time away, the real value item here. So its like spending all that time to get 10 mil sp, ya sell it, but the buyer pays a full price, Im sure this wont be cheap either, and wont even get point for point the value of said item... which in honestly time. that idea, pointed out to me on the john and I had to share it. I really dislike that everyone now will be buffed up, over powered... no way, ******* no way is this a good idea. Eve is hard enough as it is... to evolve behind the curve...

I just feel like CCP, you have ******* lost your marbles. You changed Eve so much, its not even familiar to me anymore, you have sold the **** out. and that is not a good thing, Ill say it, I hope others will say it too. No disrespect intended, I absolutley LOVE Eve Online... I have had so much IRL ****, homeless, addiction, wife aggro, just crazy **** and I have always kept myself together for some reason, always giving more a **** about Eve than what is happening to my job or my gf, People literally adapt their lives around Eve... Im not the only one. Despite my problems in life, everyone has them... to varying degree, my point is we are addicted to Eve and that idea it gives us of freedom, or exploration, innocence and complete evilish tendencies at times, lol I know there is tons of fun in piracy to be had. But if you cheat me out of my isk, sp, time, my love of the game concept, the way eve has been up till what its becoming, like all the other star spaceship games out there, its just really gonna loose its core idea... and that feeling. this makes me really sad man. The capital changes too... they so drastic... and for what?

this actually may be me signing off from eve, Ill find someone to buy my accounts from me, cause i have done the wrong thing, investing so much into something like Eve Online. I literally have lost everything I own, my family and friends... dude, and Eve is gone too... its changed so much, Ill never get to experience it like I thought I could, if only I had found Eve from the get go. I feel like with all these changes, eve is gone. and for that, i bid you all farewell. We will see what is what, I know I gotta move on, personally, cause I cant live in my car and try to finish college and deal with reality, with all that is going on in the world, its like no one cares, we all hide from it and wont face the truth... Ive been ashamed for my actions in the service but tbh I cant regret it cause jet fuel doenst ******* melt steel beams and every countrys gov is corrupt to the core, religion is ******, cant even smoke a plant to deal with the insanity without going to jail or being an addict or wtf ever... i know why soldiers commit suicide and I feel so bad for them cause simply I feel it too, people just dont ******* care! they cant feel, they wont feel, either too conditioned or coward to do the moral thing.

Eve has kept me honest and helped me to grow in ways i have never thought possible. I tell ya its been so cool... to fly in space! and run from pirates! or becuase you ARE the pirate! It has helped me to see, we cannot be alone in our universe. impossible, cause you are here... we are all here. I get depressed cause Ive felt such a connection with this Earth and the people and the love of the energy... and all that is around us, and everything we create, we seem to destroy. it baffles me... eve in a silly video game where nothing is really real,... just the fact taht im here and i collapse wave functions is it. What now... after loosing my kids... everything is gone. and the one thing I care about as much as them... the one thing I ahve left... is changing so fast.
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#4972 - 2015-10-26 01:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasama
We have problem. We need more players to EvE. And I mean we the EvE players need more friends, targets, scammers and neutrals (well CCP needs them too). Sunday evening primetime - 32000 players on. It should be double - triple would be even better. How many real players there are behind that number? How many players are double or triple boxing? Anyone octa boxing? EvE needs more active players. Finding ways to include players to content in eve is in everyone's best interest.

SP is the only real capital in game in sense that it enables different roles, it enables player to make ISK, to fight etc. SP will not make better player, but it enables one to try and do stuff and be included to more activities if one so choose.

Skill system has had only minor changes so far, but measures are needed to get the newer players effective faster - some of the steps have already been taken, but more is needed and I think that argument that because “I have 100 mil skill points and suffered the fitting skills the new players need to do that too” is unhealthy and bad for the overall game. Everyday the skill gap between the new player and older players is bigger than ever before.

IMHO the plans outlined on this dev blog are not the right answer. It lacks the “EvE hurt factor”. There is no downside inside the game for this. Take ex. boosters they boost something but they have ill effects as well. Now where is the ill effect of Transneural Skill Packets? ISK? Money? No they don’t count.


Instead of generic SP packets there could be “Shock Learning Program” (SLP) introduced to the game. Function: Get single skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5. Now that would make most folks to learn a skill to lvl 4 and then for that long long lvl 5 they would have a choice. Learn the skill old fashioned way or buy the new Shock Learning Program. Downside of using SLP could be that for certain period of time, after using SLP, the learning would be hindered ex. your char would learn with your lowest attributes for x amount of days (active learning days - if the char is not learning the counter is stopped). One determining factor for that could be the total amount of skill points, training time multiplier of SLP used, and how fast one injects SLPs. So you get “learning fatigue” by injecting Shock Learning skills and more you do it longer it takes to recover from it. Engineering, shield, armor, frigate, navigation, mining, industry and even cruiser learning from 4 to 5 could be reward from some learning tutorials etc.

SLPs could also be manufactured by players. You would need a antibody, skill book that you would have to learn like: “Amarr Cruiser Shock learning”. Once you would have actually learned the skill to lvl 5 and you have the antibody acquired and you could manufacture a shock learning package from Amarr Cruiser from lvl 4 to 5. When you would make that you would actually lose the Amarr Cruiser Shock learning skill and Amarr Cruiser skill. All the skills that would have amarr cruiser as prerequisite would not function until you would have required new copy of the skill book and learned it to the needed level. Things like learning implants not working and using lower attributes for x amount of time after the package would be made. Also faster you make the packages the bigger the fatigue etc. So no selling of generic skill points but selling the skill lvl 5. Sourcing of the antibody and Shock learning skills? Aurum? In game? Manufactured by players?

This way players would still need be familiar with the skill system and get feel to it, but significant time savings can be achieved. Players could sell some skills, but there would be ingame price for making and using SLPs.

Brainstorm on,

Vasama
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4973 - 2015-10-26 02:02:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?
Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated.

*Strawman*
So you're saying you didn't say "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it?"

It looks like you did, thus critiquing your logic isn't a *strawman*

You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique.

Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4974 - 2015-10-26 02:08:01 UTC
Dror wrote:
You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique.

Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem.
The logic in the response presented was exactly that simple. You made no attempt at justification beyond "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it."

Regarding the depth of SP as a problem, there is none demonstrated. That you would have it changed leaves the burden of proof on you, and in none of the threads you've engaged on have you met that burden.
Ryker Sabezan
Doomheim
#4975 - 2015-10-26 02:12:22 UTC
Im Neutral on this i think it will be good for new players but then could see it destroying the game.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#4976 - 2015-10-26 02:55:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Answer this one then.

When are you gonna resign from CCP?


Lol so mad.

Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.



Then Eve is finish and you'll be looking for another job within a year after it hits.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#4977 - 2015-10-26 03:07:22 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Answer this one then.

When are you gonna resign from CCP?


Lol so mad.

Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.


Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:.

Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions.


I just hope they roll out with it ASAP before my subs expire so I can clear away any doubts about leaving this game for good.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#4978 - 2015-10-26 03:25:23 UTC
Lots of butthurt bitter vets in this thread.

I won't benefit from this change much (got at least 40m SP, last time I checked, so I don't need much more SP). It would make NO DIFFERENCE if some noob buys himself 10m SP to catch up and become a viable PVP player. In fact, I welcome it. Means more pilots for me to pew-pew with.

The only people complaining are those "elite" players who want to continue blapping under-skilled noobs.
Dave Stark
#4979 - 2015-10-26 06:31:50 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Answer this one then.

When are you gonna resign from CCP?


Lol so mad.

Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.



Then Eve is finish and you'll be looking for another job within a year after it hits.


salty and delicious.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4980 - 2015-10-26 08:03:47 UTC
If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character".

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville