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So Hi-Sec bitches alot? Is Hi SEC dead for CCP or worthless?

First post
Author
Korsaro Kahn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-10-25 15:55:25 UTC
Hallo


Has Hi-Sec for CCP any worth or intresst left? Or are we complaining to often again as it was said ad eve vagas, or along that line?

So null warriors you may begin...

Herzyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-10-25 16:10:59 UTC
Is this related to EvE vegas? Here's hoping for some VODs. It's hard to distinguish between eve-is-dead naysayers and the ''constructive'' folks here at the forums.

Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#3 - 2015-10-25 16:41:08 UTC
Currently most active players in the game reside in high security space (that small area that forms the centre of the EVE galaxy). This phenomenon indicates that the other regions of space are suffering from lack of carrot syndrome.

Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.

The current situation is an embarrassment for a game which likes to tout itself as a cutthroat universe full of mischief, backstabbing, uneasy alliances and player-driven political intrigue

This is likely why CCP are focussing efforts on re-developing null sec space at present.
Herzyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-10-25 16:56:47 UTC
Robert Warner wrote:
Currently most active players in the game reside in high security space (that small area that forms the centre of the EVE galaxy). This phenomenon indicates that the other regions of space are suffering from lack of carrot syndrome.

Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.

The current situation is an embarrassment for a game which likes to tout itself as a cutthroat universe full of mischief, backstabbing, uneasy alliances and player-driven political intrigue

This is likely why CCP are focussing efforts on re-developing null sec space at present.


Rewards wise, isn't null sec good enough already? Or are we talking about a stagnant null sec?

Or maybe its a mindset thing, you can only thrive in nullsec at present if you belong to a sizable corp, anything less, you will get eaten alive.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#5 - 2015-10-25 17:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Herzyr wrote:
Robert Warner wrote:
Currently most active players in the game reside in high security space (that small area that forms the centre of the EVE galaxy). This phenomenon indicates that the other regions of space are suffering from lack of carrot syndrome.

Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.

The current situation is an embarrassment for a game which likes to tout itself as a cutthroat universe full of mischief, backstabbing, uneasy alliances and player-driven political intrigue

This is likely why CCP are focussing efforts on re-developing null sec space at present.


Rewards wise, isn't null sec good enough already? Or are we talking about a stagnant null sec?

Or maybe its a mindset thing, you can only thrive in nullsec at present if you belong to a sizable corp, anything less, you will get eaten alive.

Another thing to keep in mind is,

"that 'carrot' may look pretty good over there... but I can pick up enough pieces of carrots in my very safe area of the game to make a full carrot. Yeah... it may take a while longer to do, but I do not have to face much (if any) potential risk of loss doing it."
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#6 - 2015-10-25 18:18:34 UTC
Highsec is...

...the most complex space in EVE
...the place with more diverse gameplay
...the place where can be found 72% of all characters logged in
...the ingame home for at least 50% of all subscribers

Also Highsec is...

...the place with shortest player tenures
...the place with worst player retention
...the place with worst content
...the space that gets nerfed when other space areas need more "carrot"


CCP prioritizes nullsec over everything.
Then they also care of lowsec.
And each now and then they think of wormholes.

But highsec hasn't been prioritized for years. Highsec development is commonly undertaken as a mean so highsec players leave highsec and go somewhere else or do somehting else. Whatever is added to highsec, either is shared by all the other areas, or is of worst quality than in other areas, or is not related to highsec gameplay, or is a bait to go play somewhere else.

Highsec, its players, and the way they play, are not regarded by CCP in proportion to their importance for the game. And so they are not included in the future plans being announced and are not expected to get anything relevant for the duration of the Rubicon plan, scheduled for completion in 2017.

And so something funny happens: CCP announces bold development plans for what is not highsec, and they are received with excitement by some players, and yet server population keeps flatlining when it should be growing and dwindling when it should be stable.

So CCP plans fail to keep the players interested, and those plans don't include highsec. That's not an accident.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#7 - 2015-10-25 18:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
As a rather new player in a C2 worm hole, I would make loads of ISK.
As more of a veteran in Null Sec, I pretty much only break even.

I don't know if I can go back to mashing that D-Scan again, though.
(I can live without local but then cycle D-Scan automatically every X number of seconds without me clicking it.)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2015-10-25 18:41:07 UTC
wut Ugh

Citadels are new and shiny, and I'm pretty sure can be deployed in highsec, so they got a big spotlight for eve-vegas

caps, got nerfed rather hard not too long ago and also don't have much of a role in the current sov mechanics, and a lot of players are very passionate about caps so they get a spotlight.

is your point "therefor highsec is dead" Question

going to need a lot more than that, and usually some sort of suggestion on what highsec could use, to be helpful

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-10-25 18:49:06 UTC
Robert Warner wrote:
Currently most active players in the game reside in high security space (that small area that forms the centre of the EVE galaxy). This phenomenon indicates that the other regions of space are suffering from lack of carrot syndrome.

Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.

The current situation is an embarrassment for a game which likes to tout itself as a cutthroat universe full of mischief, backstabbing, uneasy alliances and player-driven political intrigue

This is likely why CCP are focussing efforts on re-developing null sec space at present.



This might not be true anymore. 1/3 2/3 split in favor of high-sec population was before the CCP Fozzie described exodus of players from High-Sec out of the game. He said Null numbers went up.

So today, there might actually be more players in Null than in High, who knows.

I really doubt Null is suffering from lack of carrot. It is getting carrot. But it is also getting beat with a switch at the time time.

Currently CCP is doing the stupidest thing it could. It is burning the wick at both ends.

CCP has ignored High Sec and most PVE content (other than pvp style burners) since around 2011.

CCP has made several massive changes to null sov, capitals, rebalanced ships and now introduces even more Capital, T3, specialized T2 pvp ships.

However they are screwing over Null capital pilots, alliances and really giving it raw dog to the WH high-enders.

They are going to find High-Sec players leaving because they are ignored, and Null Sec players leaving because they are given too much attention.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#10 - 2015-10-25 19:02:50 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
wut Ugh

Citadels are new and shiny, and I'm pretty sure can be deployed in highsec, so they got a big spotlight for eve-vegas

caps, got nerfed rather hard not too long ago and also don't have much of a role in the current sov mechanics, and a lot of players are very passionate about caps so they get a spotlight.

is your point "therefor highsec is dead" Question

going to need a lot more than that, and usually some sort of suggestion on what highsec could use, to be helpful


Ask highsec, and you shall be answered... massively:

http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/taboo-questions.html (104 comments)
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/what-to-do-with-taboos.html (20 comments)
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/looking-at-taboo.html (42 comments)

I've also made many suggestions here at the forums, but those comments and blog entries will give a better image on what does people think, away from the GD trolls.
Arthur Hannigen
#11 - 2015-10-25 19:04:37 UTC
Korsaro Kahn wrote:
Hallo


Has Hi-Sec for CCP any worth or intresst left? Or are we complaining to often again as it was said ad eve vagas, or along that line?

So null warriors you may begin...


Hmm. Is that what CCP said? That's interesting, considering that high sec has been left to die and as far as I can tell there haven't been mass protests, incessant pleas, or mass cancellation threats. The silent majority has done exactly what I would expect them to do; quietly leave the game without making a dramatic exit.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-10-25 19:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
HS has been buffed over the last few years by quite a lot (changes to mining ships, crimewatch, CONCORD buffing, production, Bowhead, faction requirements for POS etc dropped) and the very much requested & needed nerfs (lvl 4 and HS incursions income) haven't really happened.

I'd say that HS needs to stfu.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-10-25 19:51:06 UTC
Posting in a stealth "bring lvl 5's, 10/10's to highsec as eve is dying here because code." thread

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Revenant Kane
Cannibal Empire
BLACKFLAG.
#14 - 2015-10-25 19:52:07 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
HS has been buffed over the last few years by quite a lot (changes to mining ships, crimewatch, CONCORD buffing, production, Bowhead, faction requirements for POS etc dropped) and the very much requested & needed nerfs (lvl 4 and HS incursions income) haven't really happened.

I'd say that HS needs to stfu.


That right there...
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#15 - 2015-10-25 20:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Lan Wang wrote:
Posting in a stealth "bring lvl 5's, 10/10's to highsec as eve is dying here because code." thread


From Sugar Kyle's recap blog entry (bolded my favorites):

http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/looking-at-taboo.html

Quote:

High Sec Development - Condensed

Dynamic - Mission, mining, and the world.
Group - Group missions, tasks, and building great things loosely co-op
Solo Content - Both missions and automated processes that are fiddly and easy to drop in and out of
Exclusive - Changes that are only for high sec

Creation - A job or mission maker
Choice - Allow NPC corp choice. Choice over who I hang out with while I am in a NPC corp.
Meaning - Security standings with NPC corporations
No! - Don't develop high sec or just destroy it because it is destroying Eve

The second section I called "Make High Sec". This section was not about development but I kepot seeing ideas and concepts come up

Make High Sec - Condensed

Nerf - Until people leave to other areas. This can be done through carrot or stick depending on the suggester
Basics - Able to afford a plex, rewarding, options
Force - Make people interact/Don't make me interact
Dynamic - It should be fresh, individual
Stable - Steady progress. My projects should be there the next day


The third section was about why people where in high sec. There was a lot of honesty here and that is valuable.

I Like High Sec Because - Condensed

Time management
Quiet
Relaxed
Split attention
I can be alone


Two questions I wrote across the bottom of the sheet scream at me

Is Risk vs Reward a valid view of Eve Online's development?
Don't remove the old content for the new


Yes, there were lots of "moar ISK, less risk" as you can see... Roll
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-10-25 20:43:51 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
HS has been buffed over the last few years by quite a lot (changes to mining ships, crimewatch, CONCORD buffing, production, Bowhead, faction requirements for POS etc dropped) and the very much requested & needed nerfs (lvl 4 and HS incursions income) haven't really happened.

I'd say that HS needs to stfu.



Isn't that interesting. Someone with an agenda that confuses "High-Sec" with "carebear miner"

Mining ships were changed after massive buffs to Null sec mining, null sec refinery yields and compression in POS to make it easier to transport mass ore to null sec.

Also mining was kicked in the nuts with the removal of unlimited ice, now it spawns every 4 hours.

Bowhead didn't help carebears nearly as much as it helped hyperdunkers and transport of gank ships.

Production was nerfed, now you have to pay a fee to use your own facilities.

Faction requirements removal wasn't a buff either, it made the grind for standings less important.

Lvl 4 income is nothing compared to null sec. Incursions are for a small minority at any given time. Not everyone can run them all the time (shows you know nothing about how they work)

Meanwhile, exploration was made worthless in HS, buffed in Null. Anoms were brought back to ridiculous amounts in even bad security null. Incursions were nerfed, twice. lvl 5's removed from HS. Incursions buffed in Null. WH blue loot was buffed, but generally nerfed with frig-holes and null exit changes.

So not sure what planet you are from. All I see on the forums now is Nullsec complaining about changes, and now complaining about new changes. And constant bitching to force players into their fishing nets from High Sec.

2010 saw some nice content and buffs to Highsec... game grew to 2013 levels, best we ever had. Since 2011/2012 all High Sec has seen is nerfs and a cold shoulder.

Null has been the focus since 2011, and the game is worse off for it.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#17 - 2015-10-25 20:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Robert Warner wrote:
Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.
First off. The most dangerous space right now is high sec. And depending who's posting, it's either outrageously lucrative or the worst place to make a living.

But let me give you the short answer to what you meant to say.

There is no reason dangerous space should be more lucrative. All it needs to be is more dangerous. The difference in lawful and lawless space is apples to oranges. In one you grind in relative safety (in theory) and in the other you fight for glory.

Why people think that just because they cross the line between 0.5 and 0.4 they should be rewarded is beyond me. You know what you are getting into and you know you are not going there to make ISK. You are going there to try and kick the crap out of people without the consequences of high sec.

Isn't that reward enough?

Mr Epeen Cool
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#18 - 2015-10-25 21:02:06 UTC
Any change to null-sec, low-sec and wh space also affects high sec to some degree and visa-versa.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-10-25 21:07:35 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Any change to null-sec, low-sec and wh space also affects high sec to some degree and visa-versa.



It would have to be a very indirect round of logic to say Fozzie sov has effect on most of what happens in high-sec. Same for jump fatigue changes, ewar changes to super capitals and the new carrier class.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-10-25 21:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Why do I complain?

Because Eve has the best tools for gameplay of any MMO, but being implemented like games at a carnival. We are playing wack a mole with the weapons from a survival game.

Edit: For me, to play a high risk pvp style play means I would have to play eve in a way I would not enjoy. I would have to farm more, be a pirate, etc. It might not sound like much, but for me, it is quite difficult. The biggest issue is the blinders I have seen go up over the past few years due to wealth. Not everybody can be eve rich, a good many players cannot live the bling ship lifestyle, or run alts to fund pvp losses. Really complex for another discussion. The clone grade removal was well worth it.

Take myself for example. A standard pvp cruiser or bc, T1 hull, T2 fit. If I go on a roam for say half an hour, or an hour, I might not have anything. If I lost ship, or back then podkilled (nullsec bubbles and all that) it is suddenly a couple hours of my gameplay doing what I really don't like to cover the loss. Even if I was fine, was still a loss due to ammo and stuff. T2 ammo and nanite paste, all that.

So essentially from a time standpoint, not living the highsec lifestyle would mean a 75% grindfest that I dislike. Am sure a majority of people leaving feel the same way. They play, and upon learning mechanics, realize that to get into epic pvp means participating in a very dull game. PvP entry is not sustainable, or not enticing. "You can affordably pvp in T1 frigates" but a person really wants to feel progression in play. Not be stuck noob no matter the skillpoints.

There has been buffs to highsec industry, which I think CCP wants to keep that way. Have highsec fuel low and nullsec. The only issue that I see is that there is no real basis to life in highsec that supports the core concept of Eve. Rewarding risk, and nothing is safe.

I am one of those highsec people. I have complaints. There are no bridges so to speak for somebody to be a "good guy" outside of NRDS alliances. There is no need for fancy modules, new ships, or complex stations and infrastructure. The issue is that a play style is not supported by game mechanics. Highsec and farming is dull. But it is safe. If we imagine gameplay progression as a road map:

1. People enter game in highsec.
2. Becomes very clear game is risky
3. People practice risk aversion to learn the game and get somewhere
4. People get into mission running, etc as it is fairly safe AND good earning.
5. Dead end. No progression to encourage fleet play, higher risk ventures. No matter how stuff is buffed or nerfed, this is the end of the road for many players. Outside of wanting casual pvp, why go to pvp? I mean you don't get more shinies, or bigger ships until at least a year later. Player gets bored and leaves.

High sec wants risk, they want progression to a pvp lifestyle. burner missions to me are a big fail. Like incursions, they are a script. Instead of having to learn it for yourself, the agent TELLS you exactly what to fit and counter. So high risk burner missions are not simulating of unpredictable pvp making use of favorite ships but a 100% meta game. Just like formerly risky incursions that we had to learn tactics. Alas, they were just a script, so tactics became part of the script.

Why do people complain about safety? Because like MMA said above, it was changed to cater to people who stay. Why citadels? Or these blood raider novelty events? Why not pirate jumpgates into highsec. Allow pies ability to get in, gank and then escape back to lowsec via these gates? Why not LP for high sec standing people who destroy low sec standing people? Make faction standings of pirate NPCs have reason and work exactly like empire. Tons of options that could function similar to pirate warfare.

Bring in a simple procedural mission builder. Eve and dust are entirely based around an initial procedural generation. Have missions instead posted by agents for all parties, not individually given. So standings affects who can see. Bring competition for agents. Make all missions chance to escalate. An escalated mission site is shared between multiple parties for more competition.

War declarations refined to give more control over how and where they exist to promote localized fighting instead of global while making global an expensive endeavor. This way it is an actual game tool for small corporations to compete for specific zones. Of course with restrictions and analysis to prevent abuse.

So yes, highsec complains. Lowsec complains, nullsec complains. But we get a bandaid to stop the bleeding from a protruding compound fracture. Lets try setting the bones of it first.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

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