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So Hi-Sec bitches alot? Is Hi SEC dead for CCP or worthless?

First post
Author
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#21 - 2015-10-25 21:11:08 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
You are going there to try and kick the crap out of people without the consequences of high sec.

Isn't that reward enough?


In my experience, yes, yes it is.
Add to that all the t2, faction and deadspace loots that flop out of battlefields and any small time operator should be getting fat as part of a small gang or established corp. Solo pvpers, forget those weirdos.
The slightly higher rewards for PVE are just right to attract pure PVE pilots.
This thread is an example of insightful replies to a godawful, incoherent OP, 10/10 gj.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#22 - 2015-10-25 21:13:51 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

So yes, highsec complains. Lowsec complains, nullsec complains. But we get a bandaid to stop the bleeding from a protruding compound fracture. Lets try setting the bones of it first.



Well yes and no. WE (WH, Low, HS) get bandaids... Nullsec gets emergency surgery... three times now. Problem is CCP is a crap doctor.

So I would rather be ignored like we are, than have our spleen removed by accident and a second liver put in it's place like Null got.

Problem is CCP needs to stop with the Buff here Nerf there to make it even approach and look at CONTENT... not nerf or buff, CONTENT.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#23 - 2015-10-25 21:18:08 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ask highsec, and you shall be answered... massively:

http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/taboo-questions.html (104 comments)
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/what-to-do-with-taboos.html (20 comments)
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/looking-at-taboo.html (42 comments)

I've also made many suggestions here at the forums, but those comments and blog entries will give a better image on what does people think, away from the GD trolls.


ask highsec and get 10,000 monkeys typing on 10,000 typewriters. at least the GD trolls are funny, most of those responses seem to be ideas, or rehashes of ideas, that have been seen before and usually flawed. One of the main points is more missions, and when I'm in game I spend most of my time running missions and I can't really see the point of more. they get figured out in hours, and are usually optimized within a few days. Oh and the mission maker tool, lulz. with the number of min/maxers eve attracts I imagine half will be stupid isk faucets, and the other half instant death traps designed to generate tears.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-10-25 21:47:59 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:


ask highsec and get 10,000 monkeys typing on 10,000 typewriters. at least the GD trolls are funny, most of those responses seem to be ideas, or rehashes of ideas, that have been seen before and usually flawed. One of the main points is more missions, and when I'm in game I spend most of my time running missions and I can't really see the point of more. they get figured out in hours, and are usually optimized within a few days. Oh and the mission maker tool, lulz. with the number of min/maxers eve attracts I imagine half will be stupid isk faucets, and the other half instant death traps designed to generate tears.


Mission maker, also flawed. With a made mission, it is now scripted. Meaning predictable, solvable and aside from a rare few creators, lacking any engaging depth usually.

Missions should be a tool to encourage and desire a more corp based, lowsec and nullsec lifestyle. This should be done by giving tastes of something more (and offering it once there) instead or dumping lye on the steak to stop the person from eating it. They will go to something less tasty but still be satisfied.

Broken record of mine for past few years. Sansha live events were probably the biggest thing eve ever did for engaging and enticing the player community. It offered players something more, and had depth. I ran fleets, usually made of high sec people who came from their shells mining or missioning to be part of something big and unknown. Being part of a fleet and community, seeing this huge thing. it affected hundreds of people.

Years later, I still get convos from people. Those who see me in local and strike up a conversation. I changed eve for hundreds of "carebears". The fact that some remember my name years later and that the experience they received encouraged them to be part of lowsec and nullsec lifestyle says something.

What effect did moving L5 agents do to encourage a pvp lifestyle? Probably discouraged it because nerfed income now just means more time doing farming to fund it.


EVE NEEDS THE UNKNOWN


That is what gives the foot twitch from pvp in eve and the excitement. If I am wrong, you guys say. The best fights and adrenalin always comes from the fights that one does not know the outcome. When it is already decided and known, suddenly the reason is lost for competitive people. A gank gives me no sense of victory or achievement. A sov battle where the alliance folds because it is so one sided, same thing. That is why I am not in null right now. The good fights were ending.

PvP needs to be about more than numbers and press F1.
PvE has to be unknown and scaling for risk and reward
Industry needs to be an active mechanic

And lastly, they all should be integrated together if you want maximum results.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#25 - 2015-10-25 21:48:48 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ask highsec, and you shall be answered... massively:

http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/taboo-questions.html (104 comments)
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/what-to-do-with-taboos.html (20 comments)
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/looking-at-taboo.html (42 comments)

I've also made many suggestions here at the forums, but those comments and blog entries will give a better image on what does people think, away from the GD trolls.


ask highsec and get 10,000 monkeys typing on 10,000 typewriters. at least the GD trolls are funny, most of those responses seem to be ideas, or rehashes of ideas, that have been seen before and usually flawed. One of the main points is more missions, and when I'm in game I spend most of my time running missions and I can't really see the point of more. they get figured out in hours, and are usually optimized within a few days. Oh and the mission maker tool, lulz. with the number of min/maxers eve attracts I imagine half will be stupid isk faucets, and the other half instant death traps designed to generate tears.


Let me address a common point... "If they add new missions, they'll be optimized within days".

So what? Nobody forces a mission runner to read the guides. Actually any sensible misison runner will try to run them without guide, figuring his own way, just for the enjoyment of running new stuff after literally years. We are talking about people who enjoy running missions, why would we spoil our fun with a guide?

Also, the same can be claimed about every change to every aspect of the game. Take Capital changes: probably they are nor just figured out before being released, but they've been incepted according to certain special interests.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#26 - 2015-10-25 21:51:25 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Problem is CCP needs to stop with the Buff here Nerf there to make it even approach and look at CONTENT... not nerf or buff, CONTENT.

that is probably the one line I can agree with most people in this thread.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-10-25 21:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Let me address a common point... "If they add new missions, they'll be optimized within days".

So what? Nobody forces a mission runner to read the guides. Actually any sensible misison runner will try to run them without guide, figuring his own way, just for the enjoyment of running new stuff after literally years. We are talking about people who enjoy running missions, why would we spoil our fun with a guide?

Also, the same can be claimed about every change to every aspect of the game. Take Capital changes: probably they are nor just figured out before being released, but they've been incepted according to certain special interests.


I never read guides and missions became optimized. Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

I make obscure fits to keep things interesting. I rotate how I play to keep my enjoyment of the isk grind? Should it not be the game that excites me? The fun was making use of ships. Not how I was using them. First couple days of a new mission level is a challenge, but days to learn and consume something does not an extended player make usually. Is like going to a movie and making up your own lines for what the actors are saying because the audio is turned off. After the third time watching it, no matter what words you make, you have the full picture in your head. Anything new and unique is nothing more than satire.

Edit: Want PvE exciting? Why do RPG MMOs last so long? The story involves a significant time investment to build to the climax. Some unknown story (preferably procedural) that starts with something small all over, but eventually starts to bring people together or require more ending with some unknown top tier climax in the future. Brings players together and forces a more player interaction experience. A one off story not repeatable. Something to bring memories and leave a person geared to go for the next one.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#28 - 2015-10-25 22:10:21 UTC
If CCP made it easier to get to the far reaches of null, more people would go there. Jump fatigue hasn't helped with this at all.
If you can't ferry your goods easily whats the point of gathering it ?
Drop some NPC null islands, or eve low sec islands to make it easier and more people would go further. Sometimes there is no way around the power houses to the "dead" space.
My opinion anyway.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#29 - 2015-10-25 22:14:19 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Let me address a common point... "If they add new missions, they'll be optimized within days".

So what? Nobody forces a mission runner to read the guides. Actually any sensible misison runner will try to run them without guide, figuring his own way, just for the enjoyment of running new stuff after literally years. We are talking about people who enjoy running missions, why would we spoil our fun with a guide?

Also, the same can be claimed about every change to every aspect of the game. Take Capital changes: probably they are nor just figured out before being released, but they've been incepted according to certain special interests.

then they are just generic f1 receive loot/salvage/isk sites. I'm not sure that it adds extra enjoyment or replayability. and if it does how long does it last and how long does it take to develop? I'll admit I'm surprised they haven't added more missions over the years, but imo dev time would be better spent elsewhere.

players as a rule are unpredictable. however many have taken the path of reducing risk by blobbing. capital changes will have implications far beyond adding a few missions.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#30 - 2015-10-25 22:24:04 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
What effect did moving L5 agents do to encourage a pvp lifestyle? Probably discouraged it because nerfed income now just means more time doing farming to fund it.


overall good post, but level 5s were designed to be in lowsec from the very beginning. For a short while they could show up in highsec due to random spawning locations. Some will say that got nerfed, but I think it was more of a fix to meet original design goals.

would be interesting to see some stats on lv5 running, sounds like it can be very lucrative. but just by being in lowsec it seems to drive off most people.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-10-25 22:33:32 UTC
People who play primarily in hisec are worthless and should be treated as such.

People who risk nothing deserve nothing in return.

Ignore anyone who expresses displeasure in the state of the game if their killboards indicate they spend zero or near zero time spent in low/null sec.

You want to fly around in the safety of little kid land, then you can be treated like a little kid: Seen but not heard.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-10-25 22:35:16 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

overall good post, but level 5s were designed to be in lowsec from the very beginning. For a short while they could show up in highsec due to random spawning locations. Some will say that got nerfed, but I think it was more of a fix to meet original design goals.

would be interesting to see some stats on lv5 running, sounds like it can be very lucrative. but just by being in lowsec it seems to drive off most people.


I used to run them by chaining agents to try and get them into highsec. The ones I did? No way would I do that as a means of lowsec income. The ships needed are worth a fair bit to have the power, and not solo. Awesome fun because once every few days, me and a few corpies would get together and hit them. A group with logi in a field of big red crosses, pretty wild time compared to level 4s.

That said, I cannot see how they are viable. The damage income means any pvp person could ninja in, disrupt the balance just for a moment, and then full fleet wipe. Bring in peoples to defend the mission run? Suddenly the income split means it is actually a pretty sour bit of isk. Back then, the L5 system areas only had two groups. People trying to get them into highsec, and people trying to find mission runners. I didn't know of anybody who actually ran them in lowsec.

Overall, mission design wasn't complementary to the lifestyle. Fixed spawn and hubs plus needing big and heavy ships meant that no point to doing them. L4s in highsec made L5s in lowsec a poor choice.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#33 - 2015-10-25 22:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
What effect did moving L5 agents do to encourage a pvp lifestyle? Probably discouraged it because nerfed income now just means more time doing farming to fund it.


overall good post, but level 5s were designed to be in lowsec from the very beginning. For a short while they could show up in highsec due to random spawning locations. Some will say that got nerfed, but I think it was more of a fix to meet original design goals.

would be interesting to see some stats on lv5 running, sounds like it can be very lucrative. but just by being in lowsec it seems to drive off most people.
The reason it drives people off is not the location, it's the design.

If missions had been designed from the start to be used with a PVP fit, so many of the issues we have now could have been avoided.

Who in their right mind is going to go into low sec in a PVE fit? Not many, I'll wager. For sure not as many that would go if Level 5s required a PVP fit to run. CCP tried to mash two games together instead of making one game with separate areas, in my opinion. That's why the high and low sec people will never get along. It's like combining Snakes & Ladders with Risk and expecting players to agree on how it should be played.

CCP needs to look at these fundamental flaws in design if it wants to successfully advance the game. Not slap band-aids on a broken back.

Mr Epeen Cool
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-10-25 22:42:51 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
The reason it drives people off is not the location, it's the design.

If missions had been designed from the start to be used with a PVP fit, so many of the issues we have now could have been avoided.

Who in their right mind is going to go into low sec tin a PVE fit? Not many, I'll wager. For sure not as many that would go if Level 5s required a PVP fit to run. CCP tried to mash two games together instead of making one game with separate areas, in my opinion. That's why the high and low sec people will never get along. It's like combining Snakes & Ladders with Risk and expecting players to agree on how it should be played.

CCP needs to look at these fundamental flaws in design if it wants to successfully advance the game. Not slap band-aids on a broken back.

Mr Epeen Cool


Kinda relates to what I talk about with bait and switch. L5s being high security as they are, but a change to earnings would encourage group play. Not everybody has combat alts to do them. That is a key for most eve pvp, flying as a fleet. Solo pvp is pretty rare. The fleet combat potentials are the real jewel to eve PvP.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Brian Harrelstein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-10-25 22:45:38 UTC
Last time I went to nullsec, I was chased by a sabre, stiletto, and a svipul for 3 jumps, then bubbled, and podded. If you want people to leave highsec, give them a reason to that doesn't end in instant death.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-10-25 22:53:43 UTC
If you put in the effort to run lvl 5 properly they pay a hefty amount, like silly hefty. I'd say that the effort it takes combined with the risk (which takes effort to minimise) is on par with the pay out they give so LVL 5 are balanced just fine: quite good pay but not for everyone.

It's LVL 4 that is out of whack (and lvl 1-3 as well but those pay too little), lvl 4 base income is too good and on top of that some specific LP stores pay too well. Lowering lvl 4 overall income is very much needed because its risk&effort vs reward is just too good, it lowers the attractiveness of lvl 5 missions and also other (low, null, WH) income types.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#37 - 2015-10-25 22:55:19 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Robert Warner wrote:
Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.
First off. The most dangerous space right now is high sec. And depending who's posting, it's either outrageously lucrative or the worst place to make a living.

But let me give you the short answer to what you meant to say.

There is no reason dangerous space should be more lucrative. All it needs to be is more dangerous. The difference in lawful and lawless space is apples to oranges. In one you grind in relative safety (in theory) and in the other you fight for glory.

Why people think that just because they cross the line between 0.5 and 0.4 they should be rewarded is beyond me. You know what you are getting into and you know you are not going there to make ISK. You are going there to try and kick the crap out of people without the consequences of high sec.

Isn't that reward enough?

Mr Epeen Cool

Shocked

risk/reward is a corner stone design principle of eve.

as sec gets lower mission rewards go up, PI gets better, Ore gets better,* exploration sites drop higher class loot, belt rats have higher bounties, moon mining is low/null only, clone/mordus rats in belts, officers in null.

personally I think highsec is rather safe, and in about the right place risk/reward wise, maybe it could use a few adjustments here or there. there are many aspects of risk and many are ignored by forum warriors, and many can be mitigated by pilots. There are also levels of effort that should be considered. Is afk lowsec mining something that mining should be balanced around? probably not.

although I suppose you are right, when it comes to e-peen risk/reward goes right out the window.

*haven't looked into ores in a while, and I know there were a few large changes since I did some which seemed to involve huge buffs to ABC ores to help promote local industry.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-10-25 23:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Herzyr wrote:


Rewards wise, isn't null sec good enough already? Or are we talking about a stagnant null sec?

Or maybe its a mindset thing, you can only thrive in nullsec at present if you belong to a sizable corp, anything less, you will get eaten alive.



I tried some factional warfare.


The enemy started small and it was fun at first. Random people about, but then some Russians started fighting, and it got to about 3 or 4 people. They killed my ships with numbers. But I fit a daredevil as a surefire way to get some kills in a novice. So I went to a medium and watched d-scan ready if there was something too big, and they brought a curse so I couldn't see it coming. I tried smalls but they brough a dragoon, and I countered it with my own dragoon before they even knew I saw theirs.


They left system with a bb after seeing my counter and doubled numbers the next day. It wasn't long before the Russians took the system I was in and all the systems around it, there were 10 or more of them that would log on any time I entered system and chase me, they wouldn't plex unless it was to sit in each plex and control all of them in the hopes of easy kills. Half my near stuff got locked in the station.

I could do absolutely nothing about the situation but leave or fly around evasively in a frigate with safe spots, and you expect me to do what in null? I tried "Pandemic horde" but any lapse in attention got my blobbed by shiny things, and even if they died they would be back with another deadspace fit orthurus within half an hour. I could barely afford a T1 thorax to rat in so I was having trouble affording more than a T1 fit thrasher to pvp in.

The standing fleets were only good for retaliation, you can't expect a fleet of people 24/7 on the ready to save your ass when they want to actually do what they are doing in the game. They will drop stuff and help, but it's hard to get kills even baiting people on roams, you don't actually expect that standing fleet to save you right?

D-scan and checking local can also get exhausting while trying to rat in something cheap, and you just have to learn to ignore the cloaky campers and expect to lose something to them from time to time, or do nothing at all because they can't actually be fought.

The best time I had in low was when i bought a plex and bought a bunch of PVP ships to roam in. If you have a mission farming alt, or null alt, or market alt to fund it then sure have a great time. If you play one account, just joining a corp with a wardec of someone actually willing to hunt you will completely ruin you. Which is why Russians deliver pvp alts to lowsec spots directly located off highsec, for quick logon pvp. While something else farms.

I assume nullsec being safe is only in some spots where anyone attacking you gets drilled into the ground to insure safe ratting.

I undocked a brick tank procurer and literally when I tried to redock on the first hit I got "your ship is out of your control", then my pod died. Figures the goons had an instablap tengu fleet on station. The mittani was chatting in local so I guess it was a bad idea to even undock.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#39 - 2015-10-25 23:41:40 UTC
Herzyr wrote:
Robert Warner wrote:
Currently most active players in the game reside in high security space (that small area that forms the centre of the EVE galaxy). This phenomenon indicates that the other regions of space are suffering from lack of carrot syndrome.

Ideally, dangerous space should be more lucrative to players to draw them away from the risk averse haven of high sec space.

The current situation is an embarrassment for a game which likes to tout itself as a cutthroat universe full of mischief, backstabbing, uneasy alliances and player-driven political intrigue

This is likely why CCP are focussing efforts on re-developing null sec space at present.


Rewards wise, isn't null sec good enough already? Or are we talking about a stagnant null sec?

Or maybe its a mindset thing, you can only thrive in nullsec at present if you belong to a sizable corp, anything less, you will get eaten alive.



The issue in null sec space is that while the rewards are scale-able for many alts, they don't particularly well cater to players who have few characters. If you want to run escalations, you need a scout, if you want to rat, you should have a scout. Events such as incursions are no more rewarding in null sec than in high sec space, even though the risk is evidently vastly greater, consequently they are NEVER run.

Another major issue with null sec income is that a large portion of it is coming from moon mining, which directly fills the coffers of alliances and a few alliance leadership individuals lucky enough to be in a position to abuse the privilege. The average idiot like me never sees this income.

Null sec ratting income is a major generator of new ISK influx. Unlike missions in high security space, loyalty points and other rewards form only a small portion of null security ratting income. This, in turn, affects the entire EVE economy and consequently the developer has repeatedly reduced this income. In doing so, they have made null security space less valuable for the average joe.

We are now seeing players who PvP in null security space but earn their incomes elsewhere (very often incursions or faction warfare, with a few enterprising individuals living in wormholes). This by its very nature is turning null security space into a theme park, rather than a home to be defended. We don't fight over it any more because no-one wants to go through the unnecessary stress for space they don't want. Just get a bit of casual PvP here and there and head back to high sec/low sec to earn a bit of cash for that PLEX.

I consider myself extremely lucky because I have the alts and skills to make a reasonable living in null security space. Every day I see unfortunate players who are struggling to eck out a living here. People with just 1 - 2 characters striving to maximise their potential, trying to scout with one character while earning with the other. Many of them would be better off in high security space where they could earn with both characters and at reduced risk to themselves. Those who don't scout more often end up on the wrong side of a kill mail.

One of the best things that happened recently is the blood raider sites, this simple little event has allowed the small time player to earn a good living through simple exploration. The vast emptiness of null security space has enabled them to make some nice cash while risking their necks over the past few days.
ISD Atomic Dove
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#40 - 2015-10-25 23:49:48 UTC
Good Afternoon,

I have locked this thread as it has been titled and worded to antagonise and create inflammatory discussion.

Quote:

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Atomic Dove

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

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