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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4841 - 2015-10-24 22:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
General Lootit wrote:
Most importatnt value is blown ship within first month and not "integrate within society". I joined small corp but I'm still soloing(for real). So in what group am I? Data need to be interpreted.


That is your opinion. I think that in MMO games, socialization and integration have quite bigger aspect than the ship which is inevitably going to explode :)

General Lootit wrote:

Why now? Caring for noobs? I don't think so.


Because younger generations are in general different than older ones. They want instant fun and they follow instant trends, following trend setters and flavor of the month trends. CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.

General Lootit wrote:

We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way.

What I mean is that we cannot judge on it based on our own benefit from it as you did.

General Lootit wrote:

Actual work doesn't count? Or you just pushing people to grinding? =)

I never said I think its wrong, I am just stating how some players perceive it. If I was short on isk i would sell plexes as well since my job earning can afford me to not spend time to "work" in game. But you are taking one sentence out of whole paragraph.


General Lootit wrote:

I have no permit to speaking for all of us(noobs) where is comfortable sp zone and I'm petty much sure you too.

I agree, that is why i just did a suggestion but stated it should be investigated deeper into.


Yeap. But also I know that everyone have different learning rate.

Agreed and I know players who actually "suffered" because they were capable much more than their sp allowed them. Though there were not many of them. But they had patience and did not whine too much about it. Simply do what you can and wait till you are ready for the next step.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4842 - 2015-10-24 22:14:37 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Devs post about pestige
CCP Terminus wrote:

On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.


It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below.

Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment.

"Cheaters don't permit for race" that is main rule of challanges. Simply don't count them.

It is not simple as that. Because if they are spending tons of isk/money to get there they do not want to be considered as such. After all they are just using option which they were provided with, within the rules. And they want to claim their top positions fair and square. While on the other hand it is not fair to the ones who have been working on those positions for years, to be jumped over simply because someone is richer.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4843 - 2015-10-24 22:23:41 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.

Can you list any problems that aren't..

  • veterans getting the option of alts

  • it plausibly being ineffective

    • ?

    "SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
    ColdBeauty
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4844 - 2015-10-24 22:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ColdBeauty
    Dror wrote:
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.

    Can you list any problems that aren't..

  • veterans getting the option of alts

  • it plausibly being ineffective

    • ?


    * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs.

    * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly.

    * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks.

    * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly.

    * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant.

    Just a couple off top of my head
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4845 - 2015-10-24 23:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4846 - 2015-10-24 23:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    That is your opinion. I think that in MMO games, socialization and integration have quite bigger aspect than the ship which is inevitably going to explode :)

    It's not my opinion. But let me show that your opinion mismaching with source of it. And I'm personally value source than your opinion.
    "We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way."
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    What I mean is that we cannot judge on it based on our own benefit from it as you did.

    I'm writing here only because of my personal benifit. If someone has no personal reasons to defend his(?) position than I find it very strange. He hiding personal reason or just seeking attention(not his business at all).
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    But you are taking one sentence out of whole paragraph.

    Following your first rule
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    Agreed and I know players who actually "suffered" because they were capable much more than their sp allowed them. Though there were not many of them. But they had patience and did not whine too much about it. Simply do what you can and wait till you are ready for the next step.

    They must be happy about new system =)

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    Don ZOLA
    Omniscient Order
    #4847 - 2015-10-24 23:25:03 UTC
    General Lootit wrote:

    That fine. You can have personal opinion. But let me show that your opinion mismaching with source of it. And I'm personally value source more than your opinion.
    "We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way."

    Then next time be more precise please. Since I thought you meant any ship explosion, not to other player only. At that is quite different because almost everyone will lose the ship in missions, those who lose it to another player have other aspect than losing it just to NPCs (competition, revenge, adrenaline). Though I do find this quite interesting, shows us a bit of behavior patterns among players, which should definitely be utilized by CCP


    General Lootit wrote:

    I'm writing here only because of my personal benifit. If someone has no personal reasons to defend his(?) position than I found it very strange. He hiding personal reason or just wanting attention.

    Well my personal benefit will be if EVE lives and keeps being awesome game while having consistency in fundamentals. As you can read in my WOT`s my major concern is on customer-service provider relationship which is affected by these changes. I seek no attention, other way I would be on all forums here 24/7 :)

    General Lootit wrote:

    Following your first rule


    I do not understand what you mean by this?

    General Lootit wrote:
    They must be happy about new system =)


    Not really, all the friends I have talked to about this subject are strongly against it. They are all vets though, so I cannot say anything for newcomers beside some of them stated in this thread.

    There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
    Dror
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #4848 - 2015-10-24 23:28:54 UTC
    ColdBeauty wrote:
    Dror wrote:
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.

    Can you list any problems that aren't..

  • veterans getting the option of alts

  • it plausibly being ineffective

    • ?


    * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs.

    * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly.

    * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks.

    * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly.

    * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant.

    Just a couple off top of my head

  • Rich vets controlling the price sorta relies on there being not enough supply pushing the price back down.

  • New players that already can't afford R/L cash to purchase a character are already in the same position. This might be problematic (and arbitrary design), but that has yet to be really discussed?

  • Renters not being able to rent can manage. This item set has been mentioned already as just another currency, because it's on the market. It's also not in favor of the rentee because that's basically traveling with ISK in cargo.. which might imply that they wouldn't get paid.

  • "OP" is only a problem because of design. That includes limited SP (unfair playing field). Maybe SP trading would increase the overall class size average.. or tech level or whatever; but power creep ultimately requires buffing that which just seems no fun or an alternative More average SP could also promote enough characters beyond any negative design limitations.. or at least provides options. Granted, this is on them to enjoy the game or low status or limitations enough to play.. The trend, though, is that options are great. Abundance is.. content; is entertainment; etc..

  • The game convention that's on is discussing capital improvements, and some capitals are cheap.. like 1.5B or so. If these are reinforced, even for newbies, maybe this is the counter to T3s; but that's conjecture. The point is that there are design options, and more or less T3s is a simple subsection of the game, where more newbies playing the game because of more options might just increase frigate demographics also.

    • Nice post.

    "SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4849 - 2015-10-24 23:33:34 UTC
    ColdBeauty wrote:
    Dror wrote:
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.

    Can you list any problems that aren't..

  • veterans getting the option of alts

  • it plausibly being ineffective

    • ?


    * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs.

    * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly.

    * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks.

    * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly.

    * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant.

    Just a couple off top of my head
    You'll always be able to make your own for 1/4 PLEX + extractors. There is literally no way prices will raise above that.

    More SP doesn't mean more fun. What is peers, since almost everybody starts on their own? Also, who cares?

    Renters pay ISK or SP, it will be the exact same thing since they'll be interchangable.

    Why is FOTM an issue? Ships are cancerous when they're unbalenced, not when a number of people choose to fly them.

    LOL at SP loss actually limiting T3 use.


    Look, you're free to not like this proposal, but what you write are sloppy predictions that simply will not happen. Wait and see if you don't believe me.

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4850 - 2015-10-24 23:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    I do not understand what you mean by this?

    1. Don't tell people everything you know =)

    About social aspect

    I can't find any major disagreements but we still have opposite opinions about new system. It must be time gap. I must noitice that I don't really care about vets because they have advantage and expirince so they should work out.

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4851 - 2015-10-24 23:50:53 UTC
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    General Lootit wrote:
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    General Lootit wrote:
    Devs post about pestige
    CCP Terminus wrote:

    On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.


    It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below.

    Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment.

    "Cheaters don't permit for race" that is main rule of challanges. Simply don't count them.

    It is not simple as that. Because if they are spending tons of isk/money to get there they do not want to be considered as such. After all they are just using option which they were provided with, within the rules. And they want to claim their top positions fair and square. While on the other hand it is not fair to the ones who have been working on those positions for years, to be jumped over simply because someone is richer.

    Devs showed that they want to support vets in terms of prestige. Any wish =)

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    Don ZOLA
    Omniscient Order
    #4852 - 2015-10-24 23:54:53 UTC
    General Lootit wrote:
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    I do not understand what you mean by this?

    1. Don't tell people everything you know =)

    About social aspect

    I can't find any major disagreements but we still have opposite opinions about new system. It must be time gap. I must noitice that I don't really care about vets because they have advantage and expirince so they should work out.



    Haha, well played sir, well played :D

    Could be time gap and me being around from the start and not liking the current direction as I think it sends wrong messages to the players. And everything else is not that important, players create content within the sandbox.

    There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
    Don ZOLA
    Omniscient Order
    #4853 - 2015-10-24 23:56:57 UTC
    General Lootit wrote:

    Devs showed that they want to support vets in terms of prestige. Any wish =)


    Not really, as it is now everyone who wants can claim that away from them. It is just more expensive due to diminishing returns, but still affordable for rich people (ingame or rl rich). As long as there is no hard cap, their mechanism fails to protect.

    There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
    ColdBeauty
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4854 - 2015-10-25 01:09:27 UTC
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    ColdBeauty wrote:
    Dror wrote:
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.

    Can you list any problems that aren't..

  • veterans getting the option of alts

  • it plausibly being ineffective

    • ?


    * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs.

    * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly.

    * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks.

    * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly.

    * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant.

    Just a couple off top of my head
    You'll always be able to make your own for 1/4 PLEX + extractors. There is literally no way prices will raise above that.

    More SP doesn't mean more fun. What is peers, since almost everybody starts on their own? Also, who cares?

    Renters pay ISK or SP, it will be the exact same thing since they'll be interchangable.

    Why is FOTM an issue? Ships are cancerous when they're unbalenced, not when a number of people choose to fly them.

    LOL at SP loss actually limiting T3 use.


    Look, you're free to not like this proposal, but what you write are sloppy predictions that simply will not happen. Wait and see if you don't believe me.



    These are not predictions, they are possible outcomes, and it seems you are the one using a crystal ball...

    Quote:
    that simply will not happen


    You cannot possibly state that with confidence, to do so is at best naivety, at worst complete hubris.
    Daniela Doran
    Doomheim
    #4855 - 2015-10-25 01:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
    There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.[/quote]

    yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it.[/quote]

    Its a shame when your asked a direct question you can never get an answer from you.[/quote]

    i've answered every question i've been asked. multiple times.[/quote]


    Answer this one then.

    When are you gonna resign from CCP?
    Dave Stark
    #4856 - 2015-10-25 05:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
    Daniela Doran wrote:

    Answer this one then.

    When are you gonna resign from CCP?


    Lol so mad.

    Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.
    Levi Belvar
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #4857 - 2015-10-25 06:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
    Dror wrote:
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer.

    Just like asking for refutation on criticizing game design through research.

    Edit:
    Quote:
    Because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.


    As i said before - You were not forced to play the sand box design you chose it, Now you dont like it you want a level design structure implementing to suit your playstyle.

    Try elite,freespace or kerbal or just campingshite where you dont have to worry about anything apart from your own personal skill level.

    EDIT: Also looking at that quote above it clearly states, character classes, hanging fire FC we got a hot drop of mages incoming in 15 ... roger roger Druids, Dk's deploy the shields ....... Were all pilots you Moron.

    Or are you saying that characters classes / hull classes - so now your inferring that we should lock out huge portions of the game because because the frigates = rogues / stealth / fast / quite powerful for there size but as strong as a chocolate fire guard.The same frigate at level 10 still couldnt engage a level 100 frigate and beat it though.

    There is no way to fit your logic to this game because its unique doesnt apply oh its a sandbox.

    After thinking on it , got another way - big open space surrounded by a 10 foot fence drop a kitten into it / thats the new guy, Now drop the lion in there too / thats the 80+ mill sp player - How do you propose we balance that in a sandbox game design.

    “Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
    N00B-SAIB0T
    MK Financial
    #4858 - 2015-10-25 07:00:05 UTC
    The Dev Blog touched a little on being able to rename a character. Here's what I read:

    "That part really hits home for me because when I made that jump from 15mil SP to 33mil SP I went from being called ‘Turbo Dinosaur’ to being called ‘Kil2’. Puke."

    But it didn't go into any more detail other than that. Is being able to rename characters going to be a certain feature now? I assume it will only happen after a character sale.

    The obvious flaw with that is that scammers will just transfer a character to another one of their accounts and be able to wipe it clean with a name change, correct? No need to sell it off or biomass it and start over. It doesn't bother me but just pointing that out.

    Would love to read some more information on name change as that is apparently a BIG thing IMO.
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #4859 - 2015-10-25 07:00:23 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Daniela Doran wrote:

    Answer this one then.

    When are you gonna resign from CCP?


    Lol so mad.

    Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.

    Yes. There is a big chance this will indeed happen.
    There is a far bigger chance it will not achieve the expected goals.

    CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong.

    New icons
    New map
    Sov lasers
    The list goes on.

    This whole proposal is based on the existing player base being willing to spend isk to sell SP. If they don't participate in large enough numbers, the whole proposal is no more than hot air - Without a balloon to hold it together.

    Doesn't matter how much CCP Seagull believes it is important, without player support it will lead to nothing.

    Players I have spoken to about this - Most common responses were;
    Spend isk to sell my SP LOL.
    Let the noobs do it the same way we had to.

    Maybe if CCP weren't asking existing players to foot the bill for this it may receive a better response.

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4860 - 2015-10-25 07:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
    Sgt Ocker wrote:
    Spend isk to sell my SP LOL.
    What does this even mean?

    Either you spend ISK and buy SP.

    Or you sell SP and get ISK. Unless you mean that you'll have to buy an extractor first, but that doesn't matter since when you sell the SP packets you'll get much more ISK than the cost of an extractor. Same as spending ISK to buy a module in Jita, then selling it in Ichoriya for +30%.


    What you don't seem to understand is that SP will become a commodity. It will go from something you had NO WAY TO GET on any single character except by waiting RL time, to something that can be bought and sold anytime.

    It won't be 'your SP' anymore! It will be just SP. Like a packaged Thorax in your hangar: it's not 'yours', it's just a Thorax temporarily in your possession. You can sell it, then buy another 10, whatever. You have no reason to cling on to it like it's the most precious space dildo in the world.

    Yes, diminishing returns and buy/sell price gap yada yada, but going from 'incredibly scarce resource (for any single player)' to 'tradable commodity' is a huge change.


    Since on one side (demand), everyone more or less has a use for SP and on the other (supply), anyone can generate SP just by having an active account, it's silly to think there won't be a huge market for SP once this change kicks in.

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!