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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4821 - 2015-10-24 18:27:26 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Same thing about you and Levi.


Cannot comment on his posting, I am not reading his posts much, I am mainly challenging Dave all the time, you see I did not even pay attention to you. :)

But maybe you can provide me some counter arguments on my concerns? Before just labeling me same as someone else who you think is wrong? Or you will just join "noise without arguments" club?

I don't mind if you repeat your concerns but I'm can't guarante that I will be able to invalidate them.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100535#post6100535

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107198#post6107198

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107200#post6107200

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107202#post6107202


First one was mostly sarcasm, I did not realize how serious CCP is about this. Then I started writing my concerns with more details :)

You do not have to invalidate them. Maybe you will come up with one counter argument which would make me change a part of my opinion. Then someone else comes up with another etc and then you get me to support this. Until someone does it I am strongly against it for the reasons I have mentioned but I am not here with "divine truth" which cannot be changed if proper arguments are brought up. Or maybe you will get another point of view on the subject as well. I have to warn you, it`s a long read :)


Uhm..... are you a long lost twin of mine?

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4822 - 2015-10-24 18:29:30 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Same thing about you and Levi.


Cannot comment on his posting, I am not reading his posts much, I am mainly challenging Dave all the time, you see I did not even pay attention to you. :)

But maybe you can provide me some counter arguments on my concerns? Before just labeling me same as someone else who you think is wrong? Or you will just join "noise without arguments" club?

I don't mind if you repeat your concerns but I'm can't guarante that I will be able to invalidate them.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100535#post6100535

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107198#post6107198

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107200#post6107200

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107202#post6107202


First one was mostly sarcasm, I did not realize how serious CCP is about this. Then I started writing my concerns with more details :)

You do not have to invalidate them. Maybe you will come up with one counter argument which would make me change a part of my opinion. Then someone else comes up with another etc and then you get me to support this. Until someone does it I am strongly against it for the reasons I have mentioned but I am not here with "divine truth" which cannot be changed if proper arguments are brought up. Or maybe you will get another point of view on the subject as well. I have to warn you, it`s a long read :)

It will take some time to reply you but HELL it's good reading.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4823 - 2015-10-24 18:50:26 UTC
I checked dozens of pages to see what the main complaints are. Here are 3 suggestions:

1. ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ numbers that have been used are conditionally accessible if access to API has been granted. This allows corps to practice effective and interesting due dilligence for spy and theft protection.

2. "There will be a new item type called ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints"

Put this on a timer (timers seem to be the fixer of all things). That unallocated skill points increase by a certain number of points per hour (with diminishing returns initial sp dependent).

*This allows time to reverse skill packets created by account theft without undue impact on the purchaser in question.

*It allows CCP to adjust the rate if too fast/too slow skill point
  • increases are deemed damaging to the game (as per the design principle at the base of frequent releases. Things can be tweaked, so the threshold for release need not be too high).

    • *It limits the speed of skill point tanking and so bypasses the great unknowns on what the hell is going to happen with players who have trillions of isk to spend.

    3. See the skill packet transfer in conjunction with T3 skill point sinks. If skills become replaceable at enhanced speeds, can there then be more cases where there is risk of sp losses?

    Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4824 - 2015-10-24 18:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
    First part
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow
    ...
    older players will utilize this function to spec new alts

    New players could do same thing as old ones e.g. spec new alts when they hit 50m
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers.

    Hunters comes only when victims in place. More grinders -> more easy targets. It's rare type of profitable PvP and what I intend to try in the future. Post on reddit
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well.

    In case if it wasn't sarcasm
    There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant
    Most newbies(in this thread) already realized that expirence>skill points and still whishing to pay for ability being more relevant,
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)

    Matter of prestige. Only stupid and/or very rich person will dump his cash into one single toon. Specialized toons are much cheaper. So chance is existing but very small. Furthermore history of employee will show who is vet indeed.

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4825 - 2015-10-24 19:10:30 UTC
    Devs post about pestige
    CCP Terminus wrote:

    On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    Don ZOLA
    Omniscient Order
    #4826 - 2015-10-24 19:24:20 UTC
    Due to too many quotes, my original text is normal, your quote in italic then my reply in bold.

    After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow
    ...
    older players will utilize this function to spec new alts

    New players could do same thing as old ones e.g. spec new alts when they hit 50m

    Lots of players could do it at some point but that is not the point. Point is what you have taken out of context - After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.



    2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers.

    Hunters comes only when victims in place. More grinders -> more easy targets. It's rare type of profitable PvP and what I intend to try in the future. Post on reddit

    CCP has found out that the most of those who do not "integrate within society" but focus on solo roles (isk making) are the ones that quits the most and they are looking to find way to increase their retention rate. Hardly will happen by pushing players even heavier into grinding isk. Not everyone is npcing in 0.0 to became a victim :) And even though it might create more victims for some,we have to look at whole picture, not just our own interest


    5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well.

    In case if it wasn't sarcasm
    There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant


    What I meant is fair chances within the fundamentals. Ie people who get their isk by plexing already have some advantages over regular ones (they do not have to put time/effort to earn it). So going further this way more players will see it as unfair thing. I agree this is already bypassed by the bazaar, but the bazaar is here for a long time and most of players who play nowadays started when it was already in. This is change to "coordinate" system of chars. You can have 50mil sp today and 150 tomorrow. Plenty will find it unfair for the reason i wrote in the next quote.


    He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)

    Matter of prestige. Only stupid and/or very rich person will dump his cash into one single toon. Specialized toons are much cheaper. So chance is exist but very small. Furthermore history of employee will show who is vet indeed.


    It is matter of prestige. But there will be some cases of that and as I explained, you send a wrong message about your consistency to your customers by screwing up your long paying customers.

    There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
    Don ZOLA
    Omniscient Order
    #4827 - 2015-10-24 19:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
    General Lootit wrote:
    Devs post about pestige
    CCP Terminus wrote:

    On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.


    It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below.

    Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment.

    There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
    Jared Khanar
    #4828 - 2015-10-24 19:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
    Quote:

    CCP Terminus wrote:

    On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.


    This is like marking them with a barcode on the forehead, because they choose to ... progress in a specific way Shocked

    EDIT: it seems the "**** has probably hit the fan" now, as this is maybe starting to affect the "surroundings"
    Interesting times for creative and motivated scammers ahead.

    *popcorn*

    Economic Services

    trading spacepixels
    Shade Alidiana
    PROSPERO Corporation
    #4829 - 2015-10-24 20:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
    What I have is said a number of times already... And I didn't read all 235 pages, but if reasons I dislike the proposal are actually not obvious, there they are:
    * Through trading characters, we make big decisions and have to think them carefully. We may not like the outcome, or blame ourselves for a bad mistake, but we did this and can only sell char to fix what we've done.
    * Through trading sp, we can fix any little error we've made, on any char. Eve is a game of repercussions, or at least it should be. You trained something by mistake? Deal with it. That's the best way it is

    Now, IF the change is actually imminent.. It would be better if:
    a) skill extraction was limited to some reasonably low level
    b) skill injection couldn't be used to get above absolutely necessary minimum of skills, which can actually be achieved by creating characters with higher SP (what you've already made, partly?).

    Yes, I know, this isn't what the whole idea was initially designed for. But the "issue" is was designed to "solve" is what I love EVE for!

    Edit: would actually make sense if extraction rate increased with sp, preferrably in a nonlinear way. No extraction at 50 mil, 1 mil per month at 100, 4 at 200? That feels still a bit too high to me, but you got the idea. Or maybe not per month but per SP gained, like 1% of SP can be extracted, injecting doesn't count as gained. That might sound good enough as well...
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4830 - 2015-10-24 20:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    CCP has found out that the most of those who do not "integrate within society" but focus on solo roles (isk making) are the ones that quits the most and they are looking to find way to increase their retention rate.

    Most importatnt variable is blown ship within first month and not "integrate within society". (edit: according fanfest data) I joined small corp but I'm still soloing(for real). So in what group am I? Data need to be interpreted.

    Don ZOLA wrote:
    For all those years, majority did not complain about having to spend time to get sp, isk etc, and to remind you it was much harded than nowadays.

    Why now? Caring for noobs? I don't think so.
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    we have to look at whole picture, not just our own interest

    We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way.
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    Ie people who get their isk by plexing already have some advantages over regular ones (they do not have to put time/effort to earn it).

    Actual work doesn't count? Or you just pushing people to grinding? =)
    Don ZOLA wrote:

    After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp.

    I have no permit to speaking for all of us(noobs) where is comfortable sp zone and I'm pretty much sure you too.

    You wrote
    There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours.

    Yeap. But also I know that everyone have different learning rate.

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    Dror
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #4831 - 2015-10-24 21:00:13 UTC
    Shade Alidiana wrote:
    What I have is said a number of times already... And I didn't read all 235 pages, but if reasons I dislike the proposal are actually not obvious, there they are:
    * Through trading characters, we make big decisions and have to think them carefully. We may not like the outcome, or blame ourselves for a bad mistake, but we did this and can only sell char to fix what we've done.
    * Through trading sp, we can fix any little error we've made, on any char. Eve is a game of repercussions, or at least it should be. You trained something by mistake? Deal with it. That's the best way it is

    Now, IF the change is actually imminent.. It would be better if:
    a) skill extraction was limited to some reasonably low level
    b) skill injection couldn't be used to get above absolutely necessary minimum of skills, which can actually be achieved by creating characters with higher SP (what you've already made, partly?).

    Yes, I know, this isn't what the whole idea was initially designed for. But the "issue" is was designed to "solve" is what I love EVE for!

    Edit: would actually make sense if extraction rate increased with sp, preferrably in a nonlinear way. No extraction at 50 mil, 1 mil per month at 100, 4 at 200? That feels still a bit too high to me, but you got the idea. Or maybe not per month but per SP gained, like 1% of SP can be extracted, injecting doesn't count as gained. That might sound good enough as well...

    The game gets updates, nerfs and buffs.

    "SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
    Dave Stark
    #4832 - 2015-10-24 21:25:59 UTC
    Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
    4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented?


    considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date.
    Levi Belvar
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #4833 - 2015-10-24 21:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
    4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented?


    considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date.


    There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.

    “Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4834 - 2015-10-24 21:38:21 UTC
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    General Lootit wrote:
    Devs post about pestige
    CCP Terminus wrote:

    On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.


    It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below.

    Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment.

    "Cheaters don't permit for race" that is main rule of challanges. Simply don't count them.

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    Dave Stark
    #4835 - 2015-10-24 21:40:23 UTC
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
    4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented?


    considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date.


    There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.


    yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it.
    Levi Belvar
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #4836 - 2015-10-24 21:42:11 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
    4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented?


    considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date.


    There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.


    yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it.


    Its a shame when your asked a direct question you can never get an answer from you.

    “Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
    Dave Stark
    #4837 - 2015-10-24 21:43:20 UTC
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
    4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented?


    considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date.


    There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.


    yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it.


    Its a shame when your asked a direct question you can never get an answer from you.


    i've answered every question i've been asked. multiple times.
    Levi Belvar
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #4838 - 2015-10-24 21:51:26 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    i've answered every question i've been asked. multiple times.

    I rather be a stupid person wanting clarification and answers, in order to be wiser, than be a stupid person that blindly believes the lies they are told, without question.

    Ive asked you now, why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either.

    Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer.

    careful or people will begin to believe you have a hidden agenda.

    “Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
    Illegal Spokeswoman
    Doomheim
    #4839 - 2015-10-24 21:54:11 UTC
    I think this is a great direction to go.

    The diminishing returns should be scrapped.
    If you want to take SP's out of the game find another way to do it.

    ★ Illegal Investments ★ Banking ★
    Dror
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #4840 - 2015-10-24 21:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer.

    Just like asking for refutation on criticizing game design through research.

    Edit:
    Quote:
    Because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.

    "SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.