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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#4761 - 2015-10-24 14:22:55 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
You work today as well Dave?


No rest for the wicked.


No comment on first part of my comment? Roll


if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are?

at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well.


Dror the guy comparing EvE to wow, runescape and everquest stirling examples and had a truck drove through his arguement.


i'm not surprised. that's generally what happens when you compare apples to oranges.
Eli Depran
Doomheim
#4762 - 2015-10-24 14:27:38 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
Dev blog
Quote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly.

Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much?


I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice.

Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4763 - 2015-10-24 14:30:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
You work today as well Dave?


No rest for the wicked.


No comment on first part of my comment? Roll


if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are?

at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well.


If you didn`t shut up after the first time someone pointed out you are just dodging and avoiding questions like 100 pages ago. What difference will it make me telling you what a trolling, manipulative spinner you are? :D Still I enjoy doing it time after time Lol

Thanks for having consistency of not being able to provide counter arguments through this long thread.

Also, thanks for being with us for 200 pages, spending countless hours for something which is "of no importance" to you Blink

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#4764 - 2015-10-24 14:33:24 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
You work today as well Dave?


No rest for the wicked.


No comment on first part of my comment? Roll


if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are?

at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well.


If you didn`t shut up after the first time someone pointed out you are just dodging and avoiding questions like 100 pages ago. What difference will it make me telling you what a trolling, manipulative spinner you are? :D Still I enjoy doing it time after time Lol

Thanks for having consistency of not being able to provide counter arguments through this long thread.

Also, thanks for being with us for 200 pages, spending countless hours for something which is "of no importance" to you Blink


although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work.

counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old.

just because it isn't important doesn't mean it isn't interesting. sports aren't important yet millions of people spend millions if not billions of hours watching it - because they find it interesting.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4765 - 2015-10-24 14:39:03 UTC
Eli Depran wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
Dev blog
Quote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly.

Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much?


I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice.

Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar.

You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4766 - 2015-10-24 14:48:00 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
Dev blog
Quote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly.

Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much?


I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice.

Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar.

You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players.

Oh snap, someone better let ccp know immediately, I saw something about that on the forums here

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4767 - 2015-10-24 14:49:31 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
Dev blog
Quote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly.

Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much?


I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice.

Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar.

You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players.


The bazaar was setup Lootit to prevent breaking the EULA, its the only place to buy and sell toons. It was done to stem the sale of CCP's property on ebay and other MMO auction sites , Using it is not a violation at all.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Eli Depran
Doomheim
#4768 - 2015-10-24 14:50:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Depran
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Eli Depran wrote:
Dev blog
Quote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly.

Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much?


I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice.

Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar.

You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players.


The EULA is stating that it's illegal to sell characters to somebody for real money, not for the trade of ISK through their own system. What they are saying is if you buy any in-game assets that they own, including characters, for real money outside of the game, or sell, that is breaking the EULA. The character bazaar is implemented by CCP themselves, and is entirely their own assets, as such does not break the EULA.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4769 - 2015-10-24 14:57:53 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this.

You sound just like those guys saying that letting Carriers use gates would ruin nullsec, making clones free would only benefict gankers, and giving 400k SP for new chars would only benefict bots... you just can't let go of your pessimism.

Now while giving SP on missions would be cool, it doesn't address the problems they are trying to solve with this system.

What problem would that be?
How to optimize it by charging in real currency twice for each SP packet.
I think they have that covered.

Someone has to buy plex
Someone has to buy Aurum
= Win + Win for CCP.

Letting carriers use jump gates didn't ruin nulsec - It was ruined way before that - The mechanics behind letting carriers use jump gates only contributed to the problems in nulsec.

400k SP for new chars - Is not enough, the option to buy SP at high prices from existing players - Won't change much as far as the average new guy goes.
8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want.
One will buy the plex to do it (and still lose ships hand over fist because he hasn't learned the fundamentals of the game)
The other will just play the game and train up, buying the odd SP packet as he earns enough isk.

Meanwhile - Existing players have already outlaid isk or $ for Aurum to create the SP packets that may or may not sell.


My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Ray P
Unquestionable Prosperity
Commonwealth Vanguard
#4770 - 2015-10-24 15:06:05 UTC
1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.

Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4771 - 2015-10-24 15:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Eli Depran wrote:

The EULA is stating that it's illegal to sell characters to somebody for real money, not for the trade of ISK through their own system. What they are saying is if you buy any in-game assets that they own, including characters, for real money outside of the game, or sell, that is breaking the EULA. The character bazaar is implemented by CCP themselves, and is entirely their own assets, as such does not break the EULA.

Yet still misleading new players. Anyway I think that in-game SP trading is much better than baazar because I can choose personality.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#4772 - 2015-10-24 15:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Ray P wrote:
1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.

Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here?


it's closer to 2m with a decent remap and +5s
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4773 - 2015-10-24 15:28:56 UTC
Ray P wrote:
1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.

Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here?

Greed is the primary motivator in Eve, the current break even cost for 500k SP is 300 mil, then you have the price of the extractor, say another 100 mil (probably more as CCP is looking at this as an additional income stream). So say 400 mil to create SP packet + profit - 500 to 600 mil, if there is a lot available (at 1st there is likely to be), once people realize it isn't really that profitable or they want to train for something themselves - The price will start to rise.
Many hauling alts, indy alts and miners are just that, alts that are no longer being trained, Since plex prices have risen so much, many players have condensed characters into less accounts, meaning less accounts available to farm SP from. Yes those with multiple mining characters on individual accounts will be training something and may even sell the additional SP but you can be sure, they will want to profit from it, so prices aren't gong to be cheap.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4774 - 2015-10-24 15:29:52 UTC
Ray P wrote:
1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.

Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here?

You, supposedly.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4775 - 2015-10-24 15:31:42 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ray P wrote:
1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.

Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here?

Greed is the primary motivator in Eve, the current break even cost for 500k SP is 300 mil, then you have the price of the extractor, say another 100 mil (probably more as CCP is looking at this as an additional income stream). So say 400 mil to create SP packet + profit - 500 to 600 mil, if there is a lot available (at 1st there is likely to be), once people realize it isn't really that profitable or they want to train for something themselves - The price will start to rise.
Many hauling alts, indy alts and miners are just that, alts that are no longer being trained, Since plex prices have risen so much, many players have condensed characters into less accounts, meaning less accounts available to farm SP from. Yes those with multiple mining characters on individual accounts will be training something and may even sell the additional SP but you can be sure, they will want to profit from it, so prices aren't gong to be cheap.

The joy of player-driven markets

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4776 - 2015-10-24 15:42:56 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want.

So, what's the alternative suggestion?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4777 - 2015-10-24 15:44:08 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
I agree with the change. CCP is right with the SP penalty, without it only the rich veterans would use this.

This feature should be aimed towards new players and low SP characters.


Distinguishing between new players and new characters started by rich vets is impossible, rich vets can pay with vast amounts of isk, new players will pay with R/L cash, to think that vets are not going to abuse this system and push the price up is naive in the extreme.
Dave Stark
#4778 - 2015-10-24 15:46:06 UTC
Dror wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want.

So, what's the alternative suggestion?


wait a few months/years until they can fly what they want.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4779 - 2015-10-24 15:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Dave Stark wrote:
Dror wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want.

So, what's the alternative suggestion?


wait a few months/years until they can fly what they want.

*Oh, how inspiring*

Edit: Also not the question, btw.. which is about suggestions alternative to this idea.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4780 - 2015-10-24 15:57:33 UTC
Dror wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want.

So, what's the alternative suggestion?

It is not perfect but is better than just buying SP.

Briefly;
Create skill cues for particular ships, or easier on Devs, provide links to eveMon, EveHq etc at the time a character is created
Trial last 28 days and starts with 1 mil SP ( 500k unallocated)
Upon subscription a new player / account is given an additional 2 mil unallocated SP.

After 1 month in the game an account can accrue 4 mil SP with no implants or special remap.
Then it is down to us as Eve to keep them invested in the game.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.