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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4621 - 2015-10-23 16:45:24 UTC
If you want to grind for progress, here's a top tip: go to an MMO that has it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4622 - 2015-10-23 16:46:11 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
afkalt wrote:
In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.

This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.

A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many".
I actually agree with your concern, that certainly will happen in some cases.

On the other hand, setting aside the extreme burn-out cases, an additional motivation to newbros to do stuff could be quite positive. 'I'll just play skill queue online for the first few months' in many cases will be substituted by 'I'll actually do stuff, so I'll train a bit faster, learn and have fun at the same time!'.


Also, consider it from a RL $ point of view instead of an ISK-grinding point of view.

I've been playing since 2.5 years. With 1, then 2, now 3 accounts I gave CCP at least 1,000$ so far. That's a friggin' huge amount of cash!

Granted, it's been 15 to 45$ per month instead of all together, and yes I enjoyed myself all of the time so I got what I paid for. But it's not so crazy to think that many newbros will do the math and think that paying, say, 100$ for a headstart is a good deal...



Maybe, but there would be better ways to get newbros a head start than this, I think.

It might work out, but I'm, wary.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#4623 - 2015-10-23 16:46:49 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
If you want to grind for progress, here's a top tip: go to an MMO that has it.



this one will soon. so just start grinding now to be able to afford it.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4624 - 2015-10-23 16:51:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
afkalt wrote:
In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.

This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.

A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many".
I actually agree with your concern, that certainly will happen in some cases.

On the other hand, setting aside the extreme burn-out cases, an additional motivation to newbros to do stuff could be quite positive. 'I'll just play skill queue online for the first few months' in many cases will be substituted by 'I'll actually do stuff, so I'll train a bit faster, learn and have fun at the same time!'.


Also, consider it from a RL $ point of view instead of an ISK-grinding point of view.

I've been playing since 2.5 years. With 1, then 2, now 3 accounts I gave CCP at least 1,000$ so far. That's a friggin' huge amount of cash!

Granted, it's been 15 to 45$ per month instead of all together, and yes I enjoyed myself all of the time so I got what I paid for. But it's not so crazy to think that many newbros will do the math and think that paying, say, 100$ for a headstart is a good deal...



Maybe, but there would be better ways to get newbros a head start than this, I think.

It might work out, but I'm, wary.

don't worry be happy.mp3

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4625 - 2015-10-23 16:52:24 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!".


Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person.

..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues.


As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP.

Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ?

As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !!

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4626 - 2015-10-23 16:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!".


Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person.

..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues.


As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP.

Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ?

As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !!

Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.

There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Aves Asio
#4627 - 2015-10-23 16:57:54 UTC
Burk Nysar wrote:
I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.


Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4628 - 2015-10-23 17:01:30 UTC
Dror wrote:
Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.

There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome.


Posted earlier but the oily rag and his organ grinder didnt respond.

"Dror

After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month.

Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee.

So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained.

So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base."

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4629 - 2015-10-23 17:01:46 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?


Will it be as optional as overheating modules, which was supposed to be a last resort to escape or win a losing fight ? Currently people engage overheating on weapons before they even get in range to lock a target at all.

or

will it be as optional as rigs, which were meant to be a way of tuning your fits and not become an integral part of any standard fit.

A thing is only optional if you don't have a detriment from not using it.
Not sure what 'supposed to be' even means in a sandbox game...

When and why were people not supposed to fit rigs on a ship?


When rigs were introduced, there was only one size fits all rigs and they were quite expensive. It's not so much that you weren't supposed to fit rigs as much as you seriously had to commit to a fit. The main reason why rigs are so wide-spread is because the availability of salvage materials pushed the price of rigs. So much that people put rigs on smaller and cheaper hulls too. The than new widespread use of rigs made CCP add medium and small rigs.

When I say "supposed to", I mean the way it was designed to work and as it was explained to us players. Of course this doesn't mean that a system can't be used in a different fashion ... which again is why we're having this long discussions in this thread.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#4630 - 2015-10-23 17:09:41 UTC
Aves Asio wrote:
Burk Nysar wrote:
I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.


Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?



if it takes someone 4 months to fly a bomber something is wrong. same with a svipul
Burk Nysar
Last Rites.
#4631 - 2015-10-23 17:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Burk Nysar
Aves Asio wrote:
Burk Nysar wrote:
I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.


Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?


I want to be able to look at kill mails and see myself doing a comparable amount of damage as my teammates flying the same fit as me instead of just being cannon fodder. I want to be able to do blops with my corp in a ship other than a bomber. I want to lose shiny ****, but be able to be effective with it. What do you care what other people do with their money if it keeps them interested in the game. I have taken two breaks from this game just to let my SP build. I provided 0 content for anyone in this game during that time. You are not going to lose any new players because of this change, but you may keep more around.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4632 - 2015-10-23 17:19:10 UTC
Burk Nysar wrote:
Aves Asio wrote:
Burk Nysar wrote:
I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.


Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?


I want to be able to look at kill mails and see myself doing a comparable amount of damage as my teammates flying the same fit as me instead of just being cannon fodder. I want to be able to do blops with my corp in a ship other than a bomber. I want to lose shiny ****, but be able to be effective with it. What do you care what other people do with their money if it keeps them interested in the game. I have taken two breaks from this game just to let my SP build. I provided 0 content for anyone in this game during that time.



So I'm curious, why not the character bazaar? You've a fairly reasonable shot of getting, say, a blops pilot from there.
Burk Nysar
Last Rites.
#4633 - 2015-10-23 17:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Burk Nysar
afkalt wrote:
Burk Nysar wrote:
Aves Asio wrote:
Burk Nysar wrote:
I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.


Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?


I want to be able to look at kill mails and see myself doing a comparable amount of damage as my teammates flying the same fit as me instead of just being cannon fodder. I want to be able to do blops with my corp in a ship other than a bomber. I want to lose shiny ****, but be able to be effective with it. What do you care what other people do with their money if it keeps them interested in the game. I have taken two breaks from this game just to let my SP build. I provided 0 content for anyone in this game during that time.



So I'm curious, why not the character bazaar? You've a fairly reasonable shot of getting, say, a blops pilot from there.


I have no clue how to even begin looking into a characters past. I don't know how to judge the worth of a pilot from the bazzar. My wife would be pissed if I said hey honey gonna drop $200 more on Eve and resub again in a month. She'll get over me spending a few on a plex though. Also I have develop this characters past, I have an attachment to him. [edit] I also see the bazzar as something that is unapproachable not being a vet. Buying an item from the marketplace I can do.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4634 - 2015-10-23 17:23:58 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.

There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome.


Posted earlier but the oily rag and his organ grinder didnt respond.

"Dror

After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month.

Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee.

So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained.

So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base."

It's less than obvious why "SP comes from somewhere" is stated but followed by, what seems to be, "SP coming from nowhere" as a monetization idea.

It's still relying on SP and microtransactions to "drive" interest in the game. That seems flimsy at best.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4635 - 2015-10-23 17:40:41 UTC

All sides have been heard I think.

What we need now is a poll.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4636 - 2015-10-23 17:48:08 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.

There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome.


Posted earlier but the oily rag and his organ grinder didnt respond.

"Dror

After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month.

Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee.

So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained.

So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base."

It's less than obvious why "SP comes from somewhere" is stated but followed by, what seems to be, "SP coming from nowhere" as a monetization idea.

It's still relying on SP and microtransactions to "drive" interest in the game. That seems flimsy at best.


Maybe flimsy but 5% retention = 25% to 95% profit Blink

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Burk Nysar
Last Rites.
#4637 - 2015-10-23 17:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Burk Nysar
Jill Xelitras wrote:

All sides have been heard I think.

What we need now is a poll.



What is the question being asked? If CCP's goal with this change is to make it easier for new characters to progress their sp quicker than training, and more approachable than the character bazzar for said newer players. I would say yes, this change will help that.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4638 - 2015-10-23 17:53:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!".


Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person.

..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues.


As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP.

Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ?

As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !!


Subs stopped growing after incarna. There was a dip, then a it rebounded and then started sliding. The way I see it is being in a long term relationship and all of a sudden catching your partner talking to someone else. Nothing crazy but enough that it broke down trust in a long relationship. You get into a fight but don't want to throw away the relationship over that so you talk and work it out. You slowly come around and rekindle the romance. And then you start seeing that your partner hasn't really changed. They don't let you see their phone, they hang out late without taking to you, etc. You slowly start losing trust and interest seeing your efforts have been disappointed.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4639 - 2015-10-23 18:32:56 UTC
General Lootit wrote:

don't worry be happy.mp3


This.

All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game?

I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4640 - 2015-10-23 18:39:48 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:

All sides have been heard I think.

What we need now is a poll.



Only if it comes with an exotic dancer...