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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4601 - 2015-10-23 16:05:41 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:
...
The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?


So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way?

"Games should" is provided by the study. You can't just reduce the whole conversation to "but this surely can't apply to all games".

Levi Belvar wrote:
Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game

Here.


All that analysis you've been preaching on about is WoW.

You most definatly went down the wrong route Dror, Even the world its self is instanced. Its not a global ecomony and as i already stated everything in game is Based on a level design, Dungeons / raids / PvP.

Its a terrible comparison, Blizzard has even taken the token idea from CCP / plex

Oh and the loving your characters comes from the fact you cant sell them.

EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days i'd resub and even transfer one of my 100's and let you hammer away at it for 30 minutes to so how equally balanced you could be before swiping your from stormwind into the next expansion.

Quote the page, then, where it says the MMO.

Apparently, it's about any of X MMOs, listed on page 20.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#4602 - 2015-10-23 16:06:09 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly?


for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'...
or 'less than I currently have, as I am looking forward to cashing in on unnecessary SP'


That's a point, those PvP combat only pilots who can fly all the ships they already want to can with this idea just keep selling the additional SP from their subscription time to fund their very narrow area of gameplay. Wouldn't be such a bad thing if it didn't come from seriously messing with one of the core areas of the game.
Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.

For example, I have 3 accounts:

. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally
. A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself
. A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)


I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).



ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4603 - 2015-10-23 16:06:11 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days (snip)


QFT

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4604 - 2015-10-23 16:10:21 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp
Interesting. Do you have a source for this, please?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4605 - 2015-10-23 16:16:32 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?


Will it be as optional as overheating modules, which was supposed to be a last resort to escape or win a losing fight ? Currently people engage overheating on weapons before they even get in range to lock a target at all.

or

will it be as optional as rigs, which were meant to be a way of tuning your fits and not become an integral part of any standard fit.

A thing is only optional if you don't have a detriment from not using it.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4606 - 2015-10-23 16:18:10 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Unlike PLEX, you can use as many SP boosters as you wish on your character. To me that seems pretty unbalanced.
I see what you mean, but where's the unbalance?

EVE is full of new players, older players, multi-year vets, new players buying high-SP characters since many years now, etc...

What does it matter to you if you're fighting against a 5-year vet, a newbro that just bought a 5-year SP char on the bazaar, or a newbro that just consumed 5 years-worth of skill packets?

Also, when your fighting, say, T2 cruiser v T2 cruiser, what does it matter how many SP the other guy has in addition to lvl 4s and/or a bunch of lvl 5s on all relevant skills to fly that ship?

Finally, what does it matter when a super-high SP guy comes along in a super-pimped officer modded pirate battleship, when you just blob him with a bunch of friends in t1-fit t1 cruisers?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4607 - 2015-10-23 16:18:20 UTC
Dror wrote:
Apparently, it's about any of X MMOs, listed on page 20.


Okay 10 MMO's and none are in anyway comparable to EvE all self contained entities and runescape ffs and free2play so my first post still applied. I'd have hoped nobody would of asked for that data too.

and its page 15.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#4608 - 2015-10-23 16:20:30 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp
Interesting. Do you have a source for this, please?



Sorry can't find it :( might have to edit my comment to nothing till i can, but i might just be going crazy. I just crawled though most of this thread and what i could search on slack.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4609 - 2015-10-23 16:21:37 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?



The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster.

More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4610 - 2015-10-23 16:22:21 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?


Will it be as optional as overheating modules, which was supposed to be a last resort to escape or win a losing fight ? Currently people engage overheating on weapons before they even get in range to lock a target at all.

or

will it be as optional as rigs, which were meant to be a way of tuning your fits and not become an integral part of any standard fit.

A thing is only optional if you don't have a detriment from not using it.
Not sure what 'supposed to be' even means in a sandbox game...

When and why were people not supposed to fit rigs on a ship?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4611 - 2015-10-23 16:24:55 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp
Interesting. Do you have a source for this, please?



Sorry can't find it :( might have to edit my comment to nothing till i can, but i might just be going crazy. I just crawled though most of this thread and what i could search on slack.
No worries Lol

They could do that by not allowing you to drain more than, say 1 Mil SP a month from any single character. But that would be weird, as they usually don't interfere that much on players' freedom to use game mechanics... or on the in-game market...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4612 - 2015-10-23 16:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Apparently, it's about any of X MMOs, listed on page 20.


Okay 10 MMO's and none are in anyway comparable to EvE all self contained entities and runescape ffs and free2play so my first post still applied. I'd have hoped nobody would of asked for that data too.

and its page 15.

"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!"

Jill Xelitras wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days (snip)


QFT

It'd odd how a clear vision of increasing sub retention through what even the devlopment company states is the problem (motivation and expectations), defined through science's take on those, can be met with such non-scientific, unbased responses.

Isn't that unnecessary bias? Here's a logical claim on:

  • increasing content
    • Each sub that could explore the game would undock more instead of being forced to set a queue and "just figure out something else" that they're not necessarily interested in. They could be industrious, so there are more options to make ISK, thus more opportunity to undock. Newbies engaging sov with decent fleet comps requires sovereignties to out-pay or out-strategize them. The trend is more accessibility = more play.

  • increasing interest through just getting out of the way of intrinsic motivation
    • That includes the drives to master the game; to experience relevance in a dynamic (and deeply economical) environment (including increased depth of social factors, plausibly increasing referrals); and to feel effective and free.

  • increased interest through meeting expectations
    • Subs come to the game to play it. From stories.. that's about capitals, the many ships and fleet comps, and industrialization.

    If you have literally any alternatives for these, this is a decent place to post it.

    "SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4613 - 2015-10-23 16:30:04 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

    Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?



    The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster.

    More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it.
    I see what you mean.

    But since this is not necessary to enjoy the game, and actually detrimental to having fun, why should newbros do it?


    You know what NCQ&A would look like after the change?

    Newbro: hi guys, just started playing, do I need to grind for SP-packets?

    Helpful vets: [insert explanation of game mechanics] TL;DR: no.


    As I said above, if newbros don't ask and/or listen and/or do some research, they'll never enjoy EVE with or without SP packets.

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
    Jill Xelitras
    Xeltec services
    #4614 - 2015-10-23 16:31:31 UTC
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    Jill Xelitras wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

    I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).


    Yes, it will do that.

    But it will also send a message to new players that they have to spend $ to buy PLEX, sell those ingame for ISK to buy SP if they don't want to get left behind.
    Both CCP and any of us smart EVE players that happen to talk to newbies should worry less about imagined :messages: that game mechanics :send: and focus on taking these dudes under our wings and showing them how this damn game really works.

    Not against you, Jill, but I'm sick and tired of people saying for example 'people come from other MMOs and think that EVE is grind/character/gear based just like other MMOs'.

    WTF? 5 minutes of googling will show anyone with half a brain that EVE is different. If newbies don't have even a half a brain, they will never survive in EVE anyway. If they do, they'll ask and hopefully find people that will answer.

    Just browse NCQ&A forums for good, useful, consistent answers that explain to anyone that bothers asking what EVE is and how SP and ISK matter much much less than investing time to learn this game and making friends to fly with.


    A newbro that has the passion and attitude to thrive in EVE will quickly understand to use SP packets as an option, if/when useful only. Just as most of them understand it's useless to use PLEX to buy officer mods for your solo battleship just to end up as an ALOD.

    A newbro that doesn't even try to understand EVE basics doesn't really belong here and would quit anyway.


    Ok, this makes sense.

    I still feel that the proposed system would benefit from a hard cap on how many SP you could add per month / 6 months / year ... but I do get your position now.

    Add a new tool and let players figue it out.

    Don't anger the forum gods.

    ISD Buldath:

    > I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #4615 - 2015-10-23 16:33:05 UTC
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    afkalt wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

    Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?



    The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster.

    More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it.
    I see what you mean.

    But since this is not necessary to enjoy the game, and actually detrimental to having fun, why should newbros do it?


    You know what NCQ&A would look like after the change?

    Newbro: hi guys, just started playing, do I need to grind for SP-packets?

    Helpful vets: [insert explanation of game mechanics] TL;DR: no.


    As I said above, if newbros don't ask and/or listen and/or do some research, they'll never enjoy EVE with or without SP packets.



    In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.

    This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.

    A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many".
    General Lootit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4616 - 2015-10-23 16:34:16 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

    Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?



    The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster.

    More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it.

    Get rich or get bored trying! Thats our slogan LolLolLol

    Main source of concerns and side effects

    Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
    Burk Nysar
    Last Rites.
    #4617 - 2015-10-23 16:39:46 UTC
    I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.
    Levi Belvar
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #4618 - 2015-10-23 16:40:28 UTC
    Dror wrote:
    "Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!".


    Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person.

    “Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #4619 - 2015-10-23 16:40:44 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.

    This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.

    A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many".
    I actually agree with your concern, that certainly will happen in some cases.

    On the other hand, setting aside the extreme burn-out cases, an additional motivation to newbros to do stuff could be quite positive. 'I'll just play skill queue online for the first few months' in many cases will be substituted by 'I'll actually do stuff, so I'll train a bit faster, learn and have fun at the same time!'.


    Also, consider it from a RL $ point of view instead of an ISK-grinding point of view.

    I've been playing since 2.5 years. With 1, then 2, now 3 accounts I gave CCP at least 1,000$ so far. That's a friggin' huge amount of cash!

    Granted, it's been 15 to 45$ per month instead of all together, and yes I enjoyed myself all of the time so I got what I paid for. But it's not so crazy to think that many newbros will do the math and think that paying, say, 100$ for a headstart is a good deal...

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
    Dror
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #4620 - 2015-10-23 16:44:02 UTC
    Levi Belvar wrote:
    Dror wrote:
    "Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!".


    Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person.

    ..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues.

    "SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.