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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4581 - 2015-10-23 15:12:03 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
...Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.

For example, I have 3 accounts:

. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally
. A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself
. A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)


I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).


I can see how that works when you are using your SP among your own existing accounts but as soon as something becomes a commodity it will be gamed by those in the market with the power to do so. This will not benefit new players unless having them pay lots of extra cash to play (as they will feel they have to if they can afford it) or having them grind for isk instead is beneficial to them. I don't believe it is.
I don't think it will be easily gamed.

As was discussed a couple of times ITT, it's extremely easy for anybody to have an alt to farm SP and sell it for PLEX-equivalent price + extractor. If anybody tries to drive the price higher than that, anybody else can make free ISK just by creating an SP-farming alt.

In other words, there will be a very strong downward pressure on prices higher than 1/4 PLEX + exctractor for a 500k SP pack.


Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4582 - 2015-10-23 15:15:39 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?

Oh, this study says it's actually the opposite:


If your basing your logic on pure empirical analysis of the data in the study you quote here then its flawed as it doesnt list the games involved - it mixes free 2 play and sub based games as stated in the article.

Seeing as it refers to "Guilds" we take it that one could be WoW and another Guild wars 2, You chose to play the sandbox design and all it means. If you then want to bring it down to there levels of playstyles instanced - Dungeons - Raids where you can match players abilities on there levels to make it equal then where is the sandbox. Are you pertaining to say for instance that C1 - 2-5 mill skillpoints C-2 5 - 10 mill skillpoints. These games rewards are also based on player level all the way through to endgame content, You now asking for that ilvl680 weapon / armour to be equated to ships, there you go you completed AE 1-5 Have a raven.

PvP is also by level 10/19 20/29 30/39 So you want to alter the standard of this game based on matched levels of others,These games are equal by a level design could you see a level 10 is scratching a level 100. I refer again this is a sandbox.

They get afforded more opportunities, we can all mine, create/craft explore/wander in circles join guilds/corps from the moment you enter the games.

Your 5% retention giving 25% - 95% profit is also skewed at best as i say, your study mixes free2play with a sub base.

The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
TomParad0x
RogueNET
#4583 - 2015-10-23 15:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: TomParad0x
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
...Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.

For example, I have 3 accounts:

. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally
. A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself
. A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)


I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).


I can see how that works when you are using your SP among your own existing accounts but as soon as something becomes a commodity it will be gamed by those in the market with the power to do so. This will not benefit new players unless having them pay lots of extra cash to play (as they will feel they have to if they can afford it) or having them grind for isk instead is beneficial to them. I don't believe it is.
I don't think it will be easily gamed.

As was discussed a couple of times ITT, it's extremely easy for anybody to have an alt to farm SP and sell it for PLEX-equivalent price + extractor. If anybody tries to drive the price higher than that, anybody else can make free ISK just by creating an SP-farming alt.

In other words, there will be a very strong downward pressure on prices higher than 1/4 PLEX + exctractor for a 500k SP pack.


Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?



How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet? I can't see it being very newbie friendly unless they're cheap.

1) If they're too cheap, then they will be easy for long-time players to buy in bulk, allowing them to simply bypass the diminishing returns with a sort of brute-force.
2) If they're too expensive, they won't benefit new players at all.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4584 - 2015-10-23 15:19:49 UTC
Dror wrote:
...
The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?


So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4585 - 2015-10-23 15:21:23 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?

Oh, this study says it's actually the opposite:


If your basing your logic on pure empirical analysis of the data in the study you quote here then its flawed as it doesnt list the games involved - it mixes free 2 play and sub based games as stated in the article.

Seeing as it refers to "Guilds" we take it that one could be WoW and another Guild wars 2, You chose to play the sandbox design and all it means. If you then want to bring it down to there levels of playstyles instanced - Dungeons - Raids where you can match players abilities on there levels to make it equal then where is the sandbox. Are you pertaining to say for instance that C1 - 2-5 mill skillpoints C-2 5 - 10 mill skillpoints. These games rewards are also based on player level all the way through to endgame content, You now asking for that ilvl680 weapon / armour to be equated to ships, there you go you completed AE 1-5 Have a raven.

PvP is also by level 10/19 20/29 30/39 So you want to alter the standard of this game based on matched levels of others,These games are equal by a level design could you see a level 10 is scratching a level 100. I refer again this is a sandbox.

They get afforded more opportunities, we can all mine, create/craft explore/wander in circles join guilds/corps from the moment you enter the games.

Your 5% retention giving 25% - 95% profit is also skewed at best as i say, your study mixes free2play with a sub base.

The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?


Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4586 - 2015-10-23 15:23:43 UTC
TomParad0x wrote:
...


How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet?


They'll go for whatever people can sell them for, and that means someone will find a way to control and use this for their own gain.

The argument that everyone can create an SP farming alt doesn't work for me. Firstly it advocates even more alts, and worse still alts that will never even undock, just sit there in +5's training the same set of low multiplier skills over and over with a perfect remap to be milked of SP. Horrible idea.

Secondly any new player won't know about this or how to do this in the first place, and then when they find out wil think 'I have to have a second character to feed SP to my first???'

That surely makes for an even worse NPE.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4587 - 2015-10-23 15:29:13 UTC
TomParad0x wrote:
Doubting replying to a 200 page thread will be of much benefit, but here it is.


I've played since 2004, and I honestly don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, to me personally I feel like I would like this, I could trash some stupid stuff I trained on this character (wasted SP) and actually do something with it.

But on the level of the whole game I'm honestly not sure how I feel. The intent of this is not to help new players "catch up", because new players would either have to buy the SP via PLEX, or somehow make the isk these will cost to buy in game. I don't really feel like the character bazaar needs help.

I don't think this would ruin the game, as others have said we can already buy SP.

Main issue of bazaar (by CCPs version) is EULA violation. Also it's misleading new players.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4588 - 2015-10-23 15:36:48 UTC
TomParad0x wrote:
How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet? I can't see it being very newbie friendly unless they're cheap.
Assuming PLEX stays at 1.2 Bil, I'd bet on 300 Mil isk a packet.

It will depend on many factors, first and foremost how much CCP will charge for extractors. IMO, it would be pointless on their side to charge more than 50M ISK or so, but no-one knows at the moment.

Obviously PLEX may rise. That would make a difference in ISK price, but not in cash price (would remain around 1/4 PLEX, i.e. 5$).


Not sure if that's newbie-friendly or not. It's certainly possible for a new player to make ISK: I made over a bil in Faction Warfare in my 2nd month playing, all the while PVP-ing (not farming).

Also, I don't believe this has to be newbie-friendly, same as PLEX isn't newbie-friendly. Both are RL wallet-friendly and that's fine for me. The beauty of EVE is that neither ISK nor SP alone can make you a good player.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4589 - 2015-10-23 15:37:21 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).


Yes, it will do that.

But it will also send a message to new players that they have to spend $ to buy PLEX, sell those ingame for ISK to buy SP if they don't want to get left behind.

Some argue that players already feel the need to buy PLEX to get isk. That's not wrong. But realistically, how many PLEX do you need to finance t1 fit t1 frigs ?

Yes, I understand that it's possible now to buy a skilled character and fill its wallet with $ fuelled PLEX selling. This behaviour is limited in scope. If you open it up to everyone, it becomes part of the game. EvE originally set out to abolish the grind for XP, by making SP training passive. The ISK grinding exists, but is proportional to your activity.

The proposed system adds:
- new passive income for vets only (despite CCP having shown in the past that they don't favour passive income)
- SP grinding (through the possibility to convert ISK to SP)

How is that good for new players ?

It's not so much about being outright against the proposal, but a sincere feeling that it would need some rethinking.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4590 - 2015-10-23 15:39:29 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
...
Main issue of bazaar (by CCPs version) is EULA violation. Also it's misleading new players.


It does make me cringe a bit when people say 'you can buy SP now' and use a necessary evil intended purely to stop RMT to back up why we should be allowed to buy unallocated SP in game.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4591 - 2015-10-23 15:44:45 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:
...
The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?


So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way?

"Games should" is provided by the study. You can't just reduce the whole conversation to "but this surely can't apply to all games".

Levi Belvar wrote:
Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game

Here.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4592 - 2015-10-23 15:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Tekitsu
Runaway thread, Sorry if any of this has been covered/proposed in the past couple hundred pages ( obviously a hot topic ) which I honestly can't think of reading.

I don't agree that it should just dump unallocated SP into your character. I mentioned in another thread that I like the Booster approach. now take the numbers here of a 500k SP packet, allow it to be injected like a booster. The rate that it increases your training is relative to the amount of SP you have.

Packet has a base "boost" rate across the board of +40 to all attributes. Using diminishing returns calculated at the time on consuming to modify these attributes determines how long it will run for. A fictitious set of numbers below.

At 500k SP it would run flat out +40 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 138.9 hours or 5.8 Days )
At 5,000k SP it would run at +30 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 185.2 hours or 7.7 Days)
At 50,000k SP it would run at +4 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 1388.9 hours or 58 Days )

So the more SP you have, the slower the consumption rate and 0 instant gratification.

Since you can't run 2 at the same time, this makes them more beneficial to newer players as an older player would not be benefited by buying 10 at a time ( since that would take about 2 years to run through )
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4593 - 2015-10-23 15:47:11 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
...
Main issue of bazaar (by CCPs version) is EULA violation. Also it's misleading new players.


It does make me cringe a bit when people say 'you can buy SP now' and use a necessary evil intended purely to stop RMT to back up why we should be allowed to buy unallocated SP in game.


I concur.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4594 - 2015-10-23 15:51:15 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).


Yes, it will do that.

But it will also send a message to new players that they have to spend $ to buy PLEX, sell those ingame for ISK to buy SP if they don't want to get left behind.
Both CCP and any of us smart EVE players that happen to talk to newbies should worry less about imagined :messages: that game mechanics :send: and focus on taking these dudes under our wings and showing them how this damn game really works.

Not against you, Jill, but I'm sick and tired of people saying for example 'people come from other MMOs and think that EVE is grind/character/gear based just like other MMOs'.

WTF? 5 minutes of googling will show anyone with half a brain that EVE is different. If newbies don't have even a half a brain, they will never survive in EVE anyway. If they do, they'll ask and hopefully find people that will answer.

Just browse NCQ&A forums for good, useful, consistent answers that explain to anyone that bothers asking what EVE is and how SP and ISK matter much much less than investing time to learn this game and making friends to fly with.


A newbro that has the passion and attitude to thrive in EVE will quickly understand to use SP packets as an option, if/when useful only. Just as most of them understand it's useless to use PLEX to buy officer mods for your solo battleship just to end up as an ALOD.

A newbro that doesn't even try to understand EVE basics doesn't really belong here and would quit anyway.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4595 - 2015-10-23 15:52:30 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:
...
Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.

....


Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so.

yes, you are wrong!
did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today?
ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between...
and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...

now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again...
it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it?
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?


Uhhh.. Do you mean like we used to get our **** pushes in by old pirates who were flying all meta 4 modules in battleships while we were struggling to survive in low sec in cruiser/BCs? Or like elite PvP alliances like BOB who only flew top notch T2 ships and were defeated by a bunch of newbie Goonies?

You say that is if the entire eve population started in 2003 and new players are just coming in to compete with them. People quit and join all the time. According to last starts i saw average eve player is 1.5 years old. If you're not having fun in your corp because they are a bunch of stuck up elitists join another corp. **** those guys.


The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4596 - 2015-10-23 15:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:
...
The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?


So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way?

"Games should" is provided by the study. You can't just reduce the whole conversation to "but this surely can't apply to all games".

Levi Belvar wrote:
Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game

Here.


All that analysis you've been preaching on about is WoW.

You most definatly went down the wrong route Dror, Even the world its self is instanced. Its not a global ecomony and as i already stated everything in game is Based on a level design, Dungeons / raids / PvP.

Its a terrible comparison, Blizzard has even taken the token idea from CCP / plex

Oh and the loving your characters comes from the fact you cant sell them.

EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days i'd resub and even transfer one of my 100's and let you hammer away at it for 30 minutes to so how equally balanced you could be before swiping your from stormwind into the next expansion.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4597 - 2015-10-23 15:58:31 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
....

All that analysis you've been preaching on about is WoW.

You most definatly went down the wrong route Dror, Even the world its self is instanced. Its not a global ecomony and as i already stated everything in game is Based on a level design, Dungeons / raids / PvP.

Its a terrible comparison, Blizzard has even taken the token idea from CCP / plex

Oh and the loving your characters comes from the fact you cant sell them.


Oh dear...
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#4598 - 2015-10-23 16:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
TomParad0x wrote:
How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet? I can't see it being very newbie friendly unless they're cheap.

1) If they're too cheap, then they will be easy for long-time players to buy in bulk, allowing them to simply bypass the diminishing returns with a sort of brute-force.
2) If they're too expensive, they won't benefit new players at all.


tl;dr: Considering only PLEX prices and how a farmer would likely set up an SP selling account, 308.6M isk is what I came up with.

Math: You gain SP at the rate of (primary skill + secondary skill / 2) per minute you are training a skill in that category. The max you can get is 32 and 26 in those respective categories with +5 implants. So 32+13 = 45SP/min. There are 43200 minutes in a month (60min x 24hrs x 30days). 43200 x 45 = 1944000SP/mo.

A PLEX is a month of game time. So 1.2B isk / 1944000 = 617.28 isk / SP.

617.28 * 500k = 308641975.31 isk for 500k SP. This does not include any transaction fees, the cost of implants, or extractors. Extractors will ofc be a per transaction cost. Implants are a one-time cost that can be spread across the life-time of the account.

At this point, the cost of extractors is really all we don't know.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4599 - 2015-10-23 16:02:21 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Not sure if that's newbie-friendly or not. It's certainly possible for a new player to make ISK: I made over a bil in Faction Warfare in my 2nd month playing, all the while PVP-ing (not farming).

Also, I don't believe this has to be newbie-friendly, same as PLEX isn't newbie-friendly. Both are RL wallet-friendly and that's fine for me. The beauty of EVE is that neither ISK nor SP alone can make you a good player.


A couple of considerations here:

- player turn-over means that EvE can only survive if they manage to pull in new players at a rate equal or higher than they are losing them. Since some players will always leave no matter what CCP does to retain them, they're well advised to keep EvE interesting to new players.

- as other's have said already: paying a sub is ok, paying micro-transactions is ok, having both systems in your game is ok as long as CCP don't send the message that you can't get anywhere without paying a sub and into a bottomless pit of forced micro-transactions.

- the use of PLEX by those who add game-time to their account is limited to 1 per month at a max. Yes, you can buy more and even add game.time to your account, but you'll never get any more out of it. Especially you don't get an ingame advantage over anyone else by applying gametime to your account with a PLEX. This balances the PLEX system somewhat.

-> with SP for ISK ... True: the available SP on the market will be limited by the time it takes to train disposable SP on characters who can afford to train SP that will ultimately be removed and sold. This will lead to scarcity and price increase of SP. Unlike PLEX, you can use as many SP boosters as you wish on your character. To me that seems pretty unbalanced.


Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4600 - 2015-10-23 16:05:04 UTC
Alexander Tekitsu wrote:
Runaway thread, Sorry if any of this has been covered/proposed in the past couple hundred pages ( obviously a hot topic ) which I honestly can't think of reading.

I don't agree that it should just dump unallocated SP into your character. I mentioned in another thread that I like the Booster approach. now take the numbers here of a 500k SP packet, allow it to be injected like a booster. The rate that it increases your training is relative to the amount of SP you have.

Packet has a base "boost" rate across the board of +40 to all attributes. Using diminishing returns calculated at the time on consuming to modify these attributes determines how long it will run for. A fictitious set of numbers below.

At 500k SP it would run flat out +40 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 138.9 hours or 5.8 Days )
At 5,000k SP it would run at +30 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 185.2 hours or 7.7 Days)
At 50,000k SP it would run at +4 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 1388.9 hours or 58 Days )

So the more SP you have, the slower the consumption rate and 0 instant gratification.

Since you can't run 2 at the same time, this makes them more beneficial to newer players as an older player would not be benefited by buying 10 at a time ( since that would take about 2 years to run through )

vets already concern about that. No need to get it worse.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts