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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Metal Hunter
The Explorers Club
#4521 - 2015-10-23 09:31:29 UTC
Than simpler, easier do game, it is closer to those to the win button. That that was considered as difficulties and inconvenience in game, kept many players in game and forced to come into it every day. Difficulties forced players to lay ways for achievement of the objectives. At players was to what to aspire. Now in game less that to what it becomes would be desirable to achieve.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4522 - 2015-10-23 09:49:47 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:
...
Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.

....


Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so.

yes, you are wrong!
did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today?
ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between...
and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...

now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again...
it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it?
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?


Firstly you miss the point that you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like. The players here against the idea play Eve because it *isn't* a quick fix game. That is what they signed up to and why they stayed.

Secondly it was never hard for me, I planned, I researched, I learnt by trial and error and all the while I was undocking and having fun in the game by actually playing it instead of worrying about this, that or the other. You talk about doctrines, fleets etc and seem to be only considering PvP content. I've been playing for around 3 years (so by no means a vet) and yet I've never been in a PvP fleet, never joined a big alliance and never ever missed either because I do everything else the game has to offer. You do not need 20 mil to fly frigs, destroyers or cruisers effectively. You will need significantly less to fly the pirate ships of any flavour effectively if you don't want to wait until tech II ships (or in many cases simply because they are better)

I am not and have never been risk averse. I'm currently moving down to a WH for more fun and guess what? I am going to be flying either pirate ships (all tech I and easily trained into) or a Dominix (yes you guessed it, a tech I BS). Players do not need huge amounts of SP to go and have fun, they just need to play the game.

P.S. those players wanting to go fly in whatever they can should try spectre fleets or whatever they are called. As I understand it they have no requirements on what you can fly. Same for Brave etc. But hey, what do I know? I'm to busy doing everything else that isn't PvP combat...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4523 - 2015-10-23 09:52:08 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea.


Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.


i've never suggested they should be ignored. merely pointed out that this place isn't the only place with feedback


It seems we're agreeing in a roundabout way. We should stop that, we have reputations to consider (you developers can't be agreeing with us players now can you Blink )
Norian Lonark
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4524 - 2015-10-23 09:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Norian Lonark
gascanu wrote:

yes, you are wrong!
did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today?
ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between...
and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...

now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again...
it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it?
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?


But not all corps have such requirements?

What about the new player joining a corp which will welcome them, what about a new player doing their own thing with a group of similar minded people while they play and decide what they want to do. Why does a new player have to join these alliances have they no other choice?

This post in my view shows how open to abuse this sort of system would be in a making alliances and corps even less considerate of new players and the effect that it will have with them investing their massive resources into abusing this mechanic to create even more perfect alts fit for their needs.

I am not saying CCP shouldnt look how the new player experience can be improved and boosted... but I just dont feel that SP trading is the right way to go and has so many rammifications and possibilities to exploit.

Start wide, expand further, and never look back
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4525 - 2015-10-23 10:02:48 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
it was never hard for me, I planned, I researched, I learnt by trial and error and all the while I was undocking and having fun in the game by actually playing it instead of worrying about this, that or the other.

Good for you but
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
you miss the point that you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like

I'm can pursuit only one goal at the time. And I want to trade my active playing hours(isk) for boosting my SP to be able progress faster at my plan.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4526 - 2015-10-23 10:18:47 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea.


Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.



Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back.

Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way].

Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works.
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4527 - 2015-10-23 10:23:07 UTC
Correct me if I am wrong but this seems a lot like a pay-to-win feature? Oh I am ISK rich let's keep buying these skillpackets to up my SP with no time investment, break out the credit card anyone? I am very concerned if this was to become a reality, CCP going free to play next with micro transactions? Kind of takes away the value of SP this and I don't see it helping the new player experience as most newbies don't have that much ISK anyway, surely there are better ways to improve the NPE than this?
Dave Stark
#4528 - 2015-10-23 10:30:12 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea.


Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.



Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back.

Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way].

Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works.


unlike almost everyone on here deriding it don't really seem to grasp how it works either.
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#4529 - 2015-10-23 10:30:27 UTC
I just cancelled my account. You can leave a message why you quit in the process. I did.

Was hard for me to cancel after 9 years of continuous subscription, but I think, that's the best vote i can give for that terrible idea.

If they change their mind, i stand ready to jump back into new eden.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4530 - 2015-10-23 10:38:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea.


Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.



Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back.

Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way].

Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works.


unlike almost everyone on here deriding it don't really seem to grasp how it works either.



This as may be, at least dissenters/people not in agreement with the "party line" are not effectively gagged.
Dave Stark
#4531 - 2015-10-23 10:47:55 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea.


Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.



Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back.

Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way].

Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works.


unlike almost everyone on here deriding it don't really seem to grasp how it works either.



This as may be, at least dissenters/people not in agreement with the "party line" are not effectively gagged.


only if people choose to sort by upvotes/downvotes. nothing stops you sorting chronologically. i view it chronologically. makes it far easier to read imo.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#4532 - 2015-10-23 12:05:17 UTC
No Dev response for 4 days and 60 pages......the point has been reached where they shut up shop and ignore all further comments.

Told ya it was a done deal already :)

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4533 - 2015-10-23 12:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Vahligmarr wrote:
Was hard for me to cancel

Quiting is most easiest way to dealing with problems exept you are addicted one. If it's the case than it wont be lasting for long time until new dose.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#4534 - 2015-10-23 12:13:51 UTC
gascanu wrote:

.....

is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?


I have no problem when new players get some support to have a even more comfortable start in new eden.

I have a problem, with somebody, who thought out a new way to get more money out of the customers, is telling me, its not a money grab, its all about newbies and their fun....

Do you really think, when some Devs are sitting together, thinking about how to get more fun into Eve for everyone, the outcome is, let us sell skill points for real money and everybody is happy?

If you ask me, there was the intention to get

- more money out of micro transactions, and after realizing that the demand for skins and clothes is limited

- they threw in the most valuable thing, skill points for sale

- constructed a money sink around it, the more you inject, the less you get out of it (a typical drug addiction principle btw)

- and describing it in an DevPost as something completely different...

Obvious...

Instead they should find a way to let pay their experiments, like gun jack, dust, valkyrie and what else, for themselves, focusing on their core game, giving Eve subscribers what they payed for, a beautiful galaxy with more and more content, long awaited game fixes, not more, not less....
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4535 - 2015-10-23 12:15:42 UTC
Jadon Wallace wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but this seems a lot like a pay-to-win feature? Oh I am ISK rich let's keep buying these skillpackets to up my SP with no time investment, break out the credit card anyone? I am very concerned if this was to become a reality, CCP going free to play next with micro transactions? Kind of takes away the value of SP this and I don't see it helping the new player experience as most newbies don't have that much ISK anyway, surely there are better ways to improve the NPE than this?

"pay to win" like you call it it's already here: you can buy isk or you can buys some 20/40/50 mil sp character. all of it with a credit card via plex; what this system is going to change is lower the entry point from about > 10 plex to about 1 plex
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#4536 - 2015-10-23 12:24:07 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Vahligmarr wrote:
Was hard for me to cancel

Quiting is most easiest way to deal with problems exept you are addicted one. If it's the case than it wont be lasting for long time until new dose.


I won't get addicted to SP Pills for sure...
Shiva 113
Yggdrasill Corporation
#4537 - 2015-10-23 12:27:01 UTC
I am absolutely against this change.

Commitment to the characters and living with the choices made is one of the few things that make Eve uniquely immersive.

The proposed change would turn this MMORPG to a MMO Arcade - at best a leisurely but expensive space sim. So ...

NO! because of everything Eve stands for.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4538 - 2015-10-23 12:29:04 UTC
Vahligmarr wrote:
gascanu wrote:

.....

is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?


I have no problem when new players get some support to have a even more comfortable start in new eden.

I have a problem, with somebody, who thought out a new way to get more money out of the customers, is telling me, its not a money grab, its all about newbies and their fun....

Do you really think, when some Devs are sitting together, thinking about how to get more fun into Eve for everyone, the outcome is, let us sell skill points for real money and everybody is happy?

If you ask me, there was the intention to get

- more money out of micro transactions, and after realizing that the demand for skins and clothes is limited

- they threw in the most valuable thing, skill points for sale

- constructed a money sink around it, the more you inject, the less you get out of it (a typical drug addiction principle btw)

- and describing it in an DevPost as something completely different...

Obvious...

Instead they should find a way to let pay their experiments, like gun jack, dust, valkyrie and what else, for themselves, focusing on their core game, giving Eve subscribers what they payed for, a beautiful galaxy with more and more content, long awaited game fixes, not more, not less....


the problem with your argument, it's that CCP is not selling sps, players are;
yes you may have a point when you say this will be "a new way to get more money out of the customers", but this depends on the price of those new extractors;
atm CCP is getting money from caracter transfers anyway, and no one is complaining about it;
until we see the prices of those new extractors, we can't really say if it's a money grab or not; so, how about agree that the idea sf sp trading is a good one, and wait to see the exact prices before we go to shoot jita monument?
cose if those things will be really cheap, we would save ourself allot of time and energy Blink
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4539 - 2015-10-23 12:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:
...
Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.

....


Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so.

yes, you are wrong!
did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today?
ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between...
and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...

now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again...
it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it?
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?


Firstly you miss the point that you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like. The players here against the idea play Eve because it *isn't* a quick fix game. That is what they signed up to and why they stayed.

Secondly it was never hard for me, I planned, I researched, I learnt by trial and error and all the while I was undocking and having fun in the game by actually playing it instead of worrying about this, that or the other. You talk about doctrines, fleets etc and seem to be only considering PvP content. I've been playing for around 3 years (so by no means a vet) and yet I've never been in a PvP fleet, never joined a big alliance and never ever missed either because I do everything else the game has to offer. You do not need 20 mil to fly frigs, destroyers or cruisers effectively. You will need significantly less to fly the pirate ships of any flavour effectively if you don't want to wait until tech II ships (or in many cases simply because they are better)

I am not and have never been risk averse. I'm currently moving down to a WH for more fun and guess what? I am going to be flying either pirate ships (all tech I and easily trained into) or a Dominix (yes you guessed it, a tech I BS). Players do not need huge amounts of SP to go and have fun, they just need to play the game.

P.S. those players wanting to go fly in whatever they can should try spectre fleets or whatever they are called. As I understand it they have no requirements on what you can fly. Same for Brave etc. But hey, what do I know? I'm to busy doing everything else that isn't PvP combat...


so you played a solo game in A MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, for about 3 years, and give your example as a successful one? i'm really sry for you...
first you say "you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like" and then you go and tell how others should play; if, by now, you cannot understand how a faster training until you reach a certain point it's beneficial for the game, there is no point in explaining it to you again
Josef Djugashvilis
#4540 - 2015-10-23 12:47:25 UTC
Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly?

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