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And can do some shooting as a protest in something as when that in Jita system? What it is possible to destroy?

Except of those 400m skill points, far and away the majority are mutually exclusive. They do not help each other.

For example I have over 11 million skillpoints in gunnery alone and a further 6 million in drones....which are completely worthless when I fly a cerberus.

So then, a newbean who has trained the heady heights of heavy missile spec IV (which days @4 days, by the way) will actually for that cerberus BETTER than me.

When I'm flying my omen navy issue, tell me how much use I'm getting from my skill points in missiles, or in drones. Let's not forget my minig skills from my newbie days, or my trade skills. Yes, they all make me fly the ship better than a newbie who focused. Except...wait...they do not.


See what you need to wrap your head around the fact that SP = versatility and that is ALL. There is an extremely limited SP cap where a given role or hull is concerned and THAT is the only level available to compete.

Consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo you can sit in that ship in under a fortnight, as I recall correctly.

Or perhaps this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je5UPKssuiE toon has less than 4m skill points.


Whilst I absolutely agree that high SP makes moving doctrines to react to a meta shift easier, it makes little to no difference to combat effectiveness if a pilot focuses.

Now of course, this is where people clamour "but if that is true then why are you so against it, clearly we have caught you in a fib". Except that is disingenuous - I am against it because newbies can't see this (half the posts in this thread including your own are proof concrete), I'm against it because it'll pressure newbeans to grind like mad things and burn out, it'll increase already record high risk aversity. In short, it will stifle content and push newbros down a completely undesirable path based on false hopes that "just one more rank and I can compete".

Reminder: What stops you having fun and competing - is you and only you*.


*Super jocks need not apply.

Pick a topic and show me which one requires 400 mil SP to take part in? I have around 40 mil and do everything other than moon mining(and that's because i'm not interested in nullsec). That's a 10th of the SP you claim is required. I don't remember adverts saying anywhere that you need vast amounts of SP to play. The 'I was there' ad? Centres around someone flying a frig through a battle. The ghost site ad? That uses SoE ships which are entirely viable for exploration with meta fits.

Your claims that a player needs max skills to be competitive are utter fallacy as proved by all the players in game who have not got maximum SP yet somehow remain competitive in the areas they have chosen to train into.

You need just under 21mill SP to make over 200mill/h. this can either be obtained through a year's worth of skill training or you can drop a couple plexes. If you can't afford the whole 21mill you can get away with around half it and probably put out around 100mill. Thinking about releasing a guide soon with everything needed.

Wonder what that kind of influx of isk and LP will do to the game's market combined with easy access to instant skillpoints. Instant HS alts for everyone?

Fun times ahead

Mobile phones? There's no reason to keep customers motivated, though, because those have to have that service.

Of course, there's no similarity.


I started playing where PLEX was 500-600M. I found some Goons training queue and set it. Then, I found out that basically the most money I could make was with FW plexing. I did that, and though I basically got the amount, I just paid the sub because it was way too much investment for almost no entertainment. I eventually quit, because I was that noobie who tried reprocessing to no efficiency, checked out industry to no profit margins, and found nothing (of depth) but the inefficiency of click-approach, etc., with seemingly no alternative. Playing that much, for PLEXing, and just orbiting beacons -- and without any better alternative, apparently! All I was there for was to feel competitive and relevant, but the game set out nothing in the form of diversity, as the stories had come.. nor of the fantasies and expectations of a sandbox game.

There was some hub bashing and fleeting, but I quit because of the whole experience. There's a lot keeping fresh characters from interesting corporation experiences, but it's mostly just interest in the game. If they're sustained because of dedication to (quite anonymous) socialization, are they really that well retained?

I came back around the faction redesign for "6M free SP". I actually started a bunch of characters; and starter-pack CD keys were on sale. The plan was to make a bunch of BC V characters (with no support skills, obviously), sell them on the market, and get a decent main. Some way through (before unlimited skill queues), I realized that I wasn't even playing the game.. just setting skills, with the idea that the game would be deep with more SP. On my main, I had trained scanning skills, support skills, fitting skills, and tried lots of areas and interests. Nothing could match FW's payout, especially with that level of market experience and SP.

There was obviously finding the problem that apparently no character had maxed SP -- it was just a huge carrot -- and I could find no character on the bazaar with the design depth of mine. So, I stopped logging in, fugging up about 80% of the characters.

I came back more recently because of finding out about a buddy playing. I joined his corporation, fulfilled the newbie tackle role, and enjoyed it a lot. I ended up top 3 in the corp -- in both position and KBs. Yet, most of the corporation was newbies, because that's apparently what most recruits are -- and training them comes with absolutely no diversity. "Here's an Atron or a Griffin. Enjoy." I'm not training them to 10v1 in a Raven. "How do I make money?" Beacons, innit! The game was still entertaining, though, because we dec'd Brave, located in Catch. Then, they got evicted.

In and out of a few alliances, our corp, through low and null -- there was no place for us, and because we couldn't efficiently progress through more powerful fleet comps, there was no potential for.. really even finding a place in just low or null. Every region we tried had that corp in T3s.. gate-camping in Cynabals and Gnosis. That's obviously beyond FW, so making money comes with problems, especially for the newbies incoming, who still require training. At that point, though, the corp had lost most of its interest -- the veterans weren't logging on, and the newbies weren't finding anything to do. Seems like an SP problem. Doesn't it?

I eventually, post-corp, found manual piloting; but that required even more (core) skills.. and ISK that I wasn't interested in playing for (especially without a potential fleet). The buddy who originally recruited me quit corp before I did, and he recently mentioned regretting spending so much on the game. There's a very definite juxtaposition that has to be fulfilled, and it doesn't even have to come from combat playstyles. Just logging on to set industry queues could have kept our comms filled.

1/?

That's 40M as in 40 mil SP, newbs now get 500k I think? I know there is a deep game beyond SP, I have explained that I take part in almost all areas of the game even with my inferior 40mil SP. SP is a central part of the game as stated in the original blog for this forum. By CCP Rise. Go argue the point with him if you disagree (probably chatting to Dave in the coffee area...).

As for you second point when in EvE do any players arrange a fight where everyone is equal? We want to win fights, to do that we apply an overwhelming amount of force in the right place at the right time. As you improve your skills you improve your options on the force that you can apply, if you require other skills you bring a friend that has them. Wow, it's not like rocket science is it?

For a player to feel ownership towards their character the character actually has to be theirs and not some carbon copy clone that just has a different avatar. Without my skillset what sets my character apart from any other in EvE? Absolutely nothing, there is no ownership as there is nothing to own.

By your theory all cars should be made exactly the same (except for the body work) because then we'd all have so much more fun driving them. All sports people should have exactly the same level of physical capability because then we can all have more fun supporting them. Every player is individual, their character should represent this (before someone yells character bazzaar I entirely disagree with this too other than it being a necessary evil to stop RMT).

Yes, but that's WH space. You dont have any isk till it makes it out of the WH and into a HS trade hub/npc buyer. WHs also aren't exactly the most new player friendly space. A lot of mechanics that you'd need to learn compared to the themerk content in HS. HS is relatively 'safe' compared to WH space. No local, bubbles, cloaky ships, ships invisible on d-scan... all kinds of things can go wrong. And lets face it, not a lot of new players are going to hop into WH space and be able to do anything other than explode. Some might and that's good, but not most.

I miss wh space

Rise + Pirate Unicorns are welcome in this discussion.

Are you really appealing to absurdity again? How is capital vs cruiser SP equal opportunity?


At least they would enjoy the depth of the game. If you would have read anything about motivation, you would probably realize that the whole autonomy idea -- freedom to make decisions and affect gameplay -- is actually encouraging. You know, it's also what the CCP videos state about correlations with ships getting blown up and better sustain?

Dror i came from a background of playing competitive quake/quakeworld - quake3. I got my first toon and someone was spamming join corp, i did and had to work out how to even get there 75 jumps later and about 4 ships i made it only to realise i just joined a pirate corp mainly canadians with a few UK players, i spent my first 3 months very quickly learning pvp but as the time zones were so different if i wanted any sort of fun was still up at stupid oclock, didnt take me long to realise that if i wanted the pvp fun that i would need another to get income with. Number 2 was spawned and sat skilling up for about a month then started running missions with a different outfit, 1 guy had access to lvl4's back then and 3 or 4 of us would join in mainly in turkeys but it was a blast didnt take that long before all were able to do level4's and we were making some good isk whilst missioning.

My pvp side was now failing apart so departed ways and joined another pirate outfit same senario borked timezones but it was fun, the grind of 1 fulfilled the needs of the other. I think here is where our stories differ already because the missioning side now i was taking new players out to start them off, getting rep getting them to understand what to do and if need be helping with kit. after this my characters just exploded with advancements in the game with mining, ship building hauling in some serious crap holes of space but it got me my retriever BPO. Not once in any of that time did skillpoints hold me back but one thing i did have all the way through was the ability to socialize with people. The more friends i made the easier any task became. I still have the same philosophy today and just because im in a decent position i dont take anything for granted, i still help with the training of new people i still drop a serious clang of loosing a pimped out ship once in a while much to the amusement of others, but you cannot blame a game for the person thinking it was going to be a land of milk and honey. Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.

I didn't appeal to anything, I pointed out that with significantly less SP than you quote I have done most things in the game at some level.

As for capital vs cruiser SP How many cruisers (or sub-caps in general) are in space at any given time on average? And how many capitals? And which set of SP have the most use in game by that measure?

Capitals are not used in the same numbers as sub-caps nor would they be. Capital combat is not that much fun by all accounts, waiting for an FC to tell you when to hit F1 and on who in 10% TiDi really doesn't appeal to me. You think there will be a spate of capital 1 v 1's if new players can instantly fly them? There would be a spate of hilarious km's as small gangs catch such ships and eat them up. That would really be fun for the new players who laid out RL cash for a ship that dies in a ball of pretty flames unless it's used in the right context (which a new player will have no idea about).

Also if the capital pilot is in a cruiser too because that is the appropriate ship for a given task then the cruiser pilot is on an exactly equal footing independent of the total SP of the capital pilot. The cruiser pilot may well prefer smaller faster ships to a whale of a floating coffin. Fun is not defined by what you can do in game but rather by what you actually do in game. Some of the most fun I've had was in dodging gatecamps in losec in a nereus whist fetching PI. I was almost certainly at around 5-10 mil SP at that time. No capital ship required.