These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4341 - 2015-10-21 21:50:07 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation.

That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either.

As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4342 - 2015-10-21 21:52:43 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation.

That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either.

As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout.

You're still passively supporting SP as a mechanic.. and also implying that MMOs have some fundamental flaw, yet there's literally no reason for a sandbox game to have an SP/XP sort of progression. It's a full game that subs would experience, and it's the reason they come.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Myevil Gankalt
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4343 - 2015-10-21 21:56:04 UTC
This whole idea is just awful.

The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.

I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4344 - 2015-10-21 22:03:50 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Havenard wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea.

We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum).

Proposal

Cerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below:

Standard Enhancer
increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days.
Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)

Advanced Enhancer
increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days.
Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)

The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.

0 – 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)
10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)
25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)
80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)

Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players.


Benefits

  1. Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)

  2. Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.

  3. It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.

  4. Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.

  5. Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)


I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed.


This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented.

It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still.

I am glad you like the suggestion. I think with the level of enhancement a new player can get from the proposal above, and also due to the fact that with a focused skill plan you can get a very solid character for 10mil - 25mil SP, it would cut down a lot of reason for new players to even use the bazaar. That being said the bazaar will still have a place mainly for capital and highly specialised characters.

I have posted this idea in F&I forums, and so If you like the idea please up vote or put a comment in this thread.

Alternative to Skill Trading

If enough people show an interest then CCP may take some notice and rethink their current plan.


You know these already exist right? Standard Cerebral Accelerator - 1.49 Bil, Prototype Cerebral Accelerator - 549 mil, Advanced Cerebral Accelerator - 15 BIL, all on contracts.

Biggest problem with them is - They are only available on contracts, you have to know what you are looking for (exact search terms), you have to know they exist to know what to look for, this is Eve and everyone wants maximum profit.

CCP want an income stream and can charge twice for each packet with their proposal - Aurum + Plex - They won't go for something that reduces how much they can squeeze out of microtransactions.

** The current Blood promo - Blood Raider Advanced Cerebral Accelerator - 250 mil on contracts. (and only lasts 24hrs)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4345 - 2015-10-21 22:06:26 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation.

That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either.

As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout.

You're still passively supporting SP as a mechanic.. and also implying that MMOs have some fundamental flaw, yet there's literally no reason for a sandbox game to have an SP/XP sort of progression. It's a full game that subs would experience, and it's the reason they come.


I fully support the long road but i do see the need for there to be something changed to speed things up for a new player, TSP player governed is a huge mistake of epic proportion, Human nature dictates if there is a way to speed thing up - they will find it, If they want to cross a river - they will build a boat, In eve if there is a legal way to bend profit exploit something - It will most definatly be exploited.
It may have not been perfect from its day of release but it has held a niche market in something that has never been done before and done it well. So why should something be stripped away that has worked for so long. There has been motivation to play the game for 12 years with the same mechanic in place, but the new players now require a helping hand.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4346 - 2015-10-21 22:15:59 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation.

That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either.

As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout.

You're still passively supporting SP as a mechanic.. and also implying that MMOs have some fundamental flaw, yet there's literally no reason for a sandbox game to have an SP/XP sort of progression. It's a full game that subs would experience, and it's the reason they come.


I fully support the long road but i do see the need for there to be something changed to speed things up for a new player, TSP player governed is a huge mistake of epic proportion, Human nature dictates if there is a way to speed thing up - they will find it, If they want to cross a river - they will build a boat, In eve if there is a legal way to bend profit exploit something - It will most definatly be exploited.
It may have not been perfect from its day of release but it has held a niche market in something that has never been done before and done it well. So why should something be stripped away that has worked for so long. There has been motivation to play the game for 12 years with the same mechanic in place, but the new players now require a helping hand.

Why, because it's predictable. How motivation functions shows the probability of success.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#4347 - 2015-10-22 02:46:00 UTC
Captain Africa wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...


--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---


There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)



Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question.

As far as I can see, there is none.



I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP.



Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here


Thats not possible, CCP is capping the upwards sprint from each package you add in SP. Did you even read the blog?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Dynamus Deckerman
Doomheim
#4348 - 2015-10-22 04:53:26 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.


Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.


the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out.


Are you trying to get people to quit Eve just because they don't agree with your philosophy? If you are someone from the Eve marketing department then you should be reprimanded for posting such a indecorous remark. Are you're an ally of CCP or an Enemy. Seems to me that you're probably the later because it's clear you don't give a lick of concern about the players and only about how much you can milk from this game.

So far, from all your post all you point out is that it would make no difference from buying char from Eve Bazaar, yada, yada. But you're forgetting something important dude, something someone who's only interested in the money aspect of Eve can't comprehend. And that is the fun aspect of Eve. I'm playing Eve because I'm enjoying the game. What you're proposing is going to subtract from that and worst thing about it is that you don't even seem to notice. You lack the ability to comprehend what draws people to play Eve which alone is reason enough for players to ignore anything you have to say in this post. If you really are some sort of representative in the marketing department of Eve then you really should step down and stop this post before you make more people contemplate on quitting Eve.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4349 - 2015-10-22 05:11:06 UTC
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.


Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.


the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out.


Are you trying to get people to quit Eve just because they don't agree with your philosophy? If you are someone from the Eve marketing department then you should be reprimanded for posting such a indecorous remark. Are you're an ally of CCP or an Enemy. Seems to me that you're probably the later because it's clear you don't give a lick of concern about the players and only about how much you can milk from this game.

So far, from all your post all you point out is that it would make no difference from buying char from Eve Bazaar, yada, yada. But you're forgetting something important dude, something someone who's only interested in the money aspect of Eve can't comprehend. And that is the fun aspect of Eve. I'm playing Eve because I'm enjoying the game. What you're proposing is going to subtract from that and worst thing about it is that you don't even seem to notice. You lack the ability to comprehend what draws people to play Eve which alone is reason enough for players to ignore anything you have to say in this post. If you really are some sort of representative in the marketing department of Eve then you really should step down and stop this post before you make more people contemplate on quitting Eve.
Confirming Dave si the evil twin of Bob from Marketing.

Evil Dave from Marketing made me quit EVE. At least 10 times already: he's so evil I re-sub just so I can quit again and show him how evil he is.

Whether crazy or troll, it's hilarious how this thread still delivers after over 4,000 posts. Lol

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave Stark
#4350 - 2015-10-22 05:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
i can't make anyone do ****.

if people want to leave, it won't be because i'm not saying "this idea is bad".

and i sure as **** ain't pandering to cry babies who's only answer is "i'mma unsub" - let them.

every time ccp make an announcement, some one says "i'll unsub if you do this". eve hasn't died yet, such threats are hollow and pathetic,
8915
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#4351 - 2015-10-22 06:33:17 UTC
Everyone let's give Eyjólfur Guðmundsson (@CCP_DrEyjoG) a round of applause for getting out of CCP when he did.


Arbitrage profits to be made boys get in there.

Skill points are going to be a commodity and all commodities can be essentially weaponized. SP are going to be priced out of reach of the people you are trying to benefit in that process. Given the nature of this system you can expect to see supply shortages in the long run. Since people over 80mill sp usually have more isk than people in the 0-5 mill sp range. In an order of magnitude of hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars of plexes. This allows the player base to ruin this process quickly since the sp supply will be destroyed, prices inflated, barriers to entry are raised just that much higher for the people you want to help. The surplus supply will dry up and will be tied to time again.

Few Hints: Buy cheap characters NOW that aren't going to sell at a premium. Look for characters that have a dumb name, bad rep, not too old and don't have a premium built into them because they are over X amount of sp. Don't worry about sp allocation. Keep all profits in the form of isk until the price of plexes goes back down. Then convert to plex and sell for $$$.

The bazzar isn't broken. It's a market. A character's utility is priced in. Factors such as bad/good name, bad/good corp history, and having your skill points over/under X amount (which is also decided by the market) get taken into consideration when the market decides what to discount and what to assign a premium to. Best thing about the whole thing is you get to choose if you buy, or wait until a better toon comes along.

The new player experience is broken and CCP doesn't want to admit it. I grew up with the game. I have been playing since I was 13. We use to be able to start with characters around 700k- 800k sp. Back then that was a decent start. They should bring that back but at a adjusted rate (most likely correlated to an average global sp of active players). And/or lowering the barriers of entry. This should be looked at as barriers of entry to fleets, and (insert marketing phrase)"THE sandbox experience" and not just a particular ship or gun. Ie: With in a day or so you use to be able to fit cruise missiles and torps to kestrels and contribute to fleets in ways that go beyond the cannon fodder doctrine.

In my experience. People like devs, game masters, bug hunters, etc. aren't super profit motivated people. This most likely boils down to someone such as Thor Bjorgolfsson, or General Catalyst Partners wanting to pump up the financial statements. This could be a move to get rid of the company since it most likely isn't giving returns they expect, the fact CCP just might lack sexiness in their eyes, or they might just want to generate some cash flows to allow CCP to have working capital to diversify their game portfolio beyond space ship stuff. A really good example of this would be a move towards the unexploited vampire game genre market. (THAT STATEMENT IS INTENDED AS A JOKE) .

Lastly, I hope CCP empties the sand that is used for the sandbox experience before they work us over. Some orifices just aren't designed for sand. Who am I kidding WTS: 1 pump of lotion for a PLEX. FAST DELIVERY. BUYER PAYS CHRIBBA'S FEES.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4352 - 2015-10-22 06:50:35 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Myevil Gankalt wrote:
This whole idea is just awful.

The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.

I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character.

OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dynamus Deckerman
Doomheim
#4353 - 2015-10-22 06:52:57 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i can't make anyone do ****.

if people want to leave, it won't be because i'm not saying "this idea is bad".

and i sure as **** ain't pandering to cry babies who's only answer is "i'mma unsub" - let them.

every time ccp make an announcement, some one says "i'll unsub if you do this". eve hasn't died yet, such threats are hollow and pathetic,


So in other words you're gambling that this game killing feature won't kill Eve this time because you think since it hasn't happen in the past that it won't happen this time? That is a very dangerous assumption considering Eve's age and present state. And this feature discredits the main core principle that made Eve what it is today. I can only see this game going downhill if such a feature as Pay2Win as this one is implemented. I'm creeping up on 26M SP and I look forward to continue this progression, it gives me something to look forward too as I continue to get better. Add Pay2Win, and this enthusiasm will vanish which will probably lead me into unsubbing also. It's not a good idea and you shouldn't tell people to quit who disagree with you, it reveals your lack of concern for Eve's long term survival. All it will do is provoke them into leaving sooner as soon as this distasteful feature is implemented.
Dave Stark
#4354 - 2015-10-22 07:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own.
Dynamus Deckerman
Doomheim
#4355 - 2015-10-22 07:03:13 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Myevil Gankalt wrote:
This whole idea is just awful.

The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.

I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character.

OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid.


You still don't get it.

I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4356 - 2015-10-22 07:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:
Add Pay2Win, and this enthusiasm will vanish which will probably lead me into unsubbing also.

Today I re-subbed only because I want to support this idea. It will be your choice. We already figured out that it's not a pay2win feature because experience>skill points in PVP.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dynamus Deckerman
Doomheim
#4357 - 2015-10-22 07:15:09 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own.


Provoking someone to quit is almost the same as telling them to quit dude. Especially since it appears that you're someone from CCP Marketing Department. You're a bad salesman for CCP and should know when it's time to throw in the towel instead of provoking people to quit when they refuse to give in to your lame sells pitch.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4358 - 2015-10-22 07:25:56 UTC
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Myevil Gankalt wrote:
This whole idea is just awful.

The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.

I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character.

OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid.


You still don't get it.




No, he doesn't. He really really doesn't.

Probably because he's (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here) still sufficiently new he's not been exposed to the lengths eve players will go to in order to get an advantage over others.

I doubt he's experienced people on safaris, experiences corporate spy/sabotage/theft.

Hell I doubt he's set foot out of highsec tbh.
Dave Stark
#4359 - 2015-10-22 07:34:44 UTC
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own.


Provoking someone to quit is almost the same as telling them to quit dude. Especially since it appears that you're someone from CCP Marketing Department. You're a bad salesman for CCP and should know when it's time to throw in the towel instead of provoking people to quit when they refuse to give in to your lame sells pitch.


Lol.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4360 - 2015-10-22 07:36:17 UTC
Myevil Gankalt wrote:
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.

Actually, the character bazaar does not embody the principle of "actions have consequence", at least not in a particularly impressive way. You have no control over how a character you will buy, and henceforth will embody, has behaved while amassing the SP you want. Their actions have consequences for you, but that's different from your principle. All you can do now is to act with due diligence, i.e., try to find out as much as you can about the character you buy. But that's damage control in a situation that has limited choices. For if you want a specific amount of SP, then you can only choose between characters that have that much SP. What is actually applying here is more the principle of "no pain, no gain." You appreciate the risk of getting stuck with a "bad history" character because it makes you pay for the advantage of switching out of your old character.

However, first, since apparently "clean" characters are raised just for selling them in the bazaar, the risk is actually not that high. In particular so if you know what to look for or have the right contacts. Second, if you have a lot of money, then this risk is meaningless. You can simply buy a character, and if it is bad, put it back on the bazaar and just buy the next one. Rinse and repeat until you find something suitable. People with deep pockets suffer no disadvantage here, other than a bit of hassle of iterating through a number of candidate bodies. The people with most experience, connections and ISK suffer least here.

Whereas in the proposed SP system, there is no potential badness attached to SP packages you buy. Here in fact your actions do have all the consequences: the character you build will be as it is because of how many SP packages you bought, and how you assigned them. Nobody else determines what kind of character you get, but you, by your actions. Furthermore, the "no pain, no gain" principle also applies. You will spend your hard earned cash. But perhaps more importantly, if you try to recycle your own character into a new one, you will pay for this with a considerable loss of SP! You lose 5M SP from the start (because you cannot extract below 5M SP), and then as you get to higher SP you get much less SP out of packet than you put in. Finally, these punishments do not strike those with most experience, connections and ISK least. They strike them hardest, because it becomes really, really costly to build up high SP this way. Of course, somebody who is super-rich may still not care, but at least a "bling character" comes with a massive "bling price" .

So in short, your assessment is exactly the wrong way around. The SP package system embodies your principles better than the character bazaar, and you should hence support it.

Myevil Gankalt wrote:
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character.

Frankly, if you are willing to pay 10 times the subscription fees (or grind ten times more to PLEX) in order to speed advance one single character at considerably less than 10 times the speed, then good on you.