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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4261 - 2015-10-21 14:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Dror wrote:
afkalt wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention.
Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D)
Understood that you can buy these with isk

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

afkalt wrote:

Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".

It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it.



So you HAVEN'T watched and understood the video YOU linked?

Uh-huh.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you seem to think making a change highly likely to increase newbro burnout is a good thing because it suits your selfish requirement of instant gratification.

You're ascribing burnout to a very specific idea, and there's probably nothing to back that up?



Nothing, except the fanfest data. Which is....y'know...something. In fact all we have.


Today skills accrue at a linerar rate irrespective (setting implants aside) of a players activity, which is key to being such a fantastic sandbox - doesnt matter what I do, I never suffer.

This proposal means I can super-grind missions/rats/sleepers/incursions to "level" my character faster. Now I admit I'm assuming that this will create a positive reinforcement to "grind isk, acquire skills", but I really do not think that it is a huge leap - especially given the genre (MMOs...grind>receive bacon).

Except the eve PvE experience has pretty much always been a side show to the main event, players interacting with players. This is why people going down that path leave us and we are, in fact, trying to get a NPE that takes them AWAY from this route.

Therefore I do not think it is "chicken little" to suggest that with the ability to purchase skill packs, we have a very real risk of pushing people into the PvE treadmill and doubling down on this by effectively giving them an SP "reward" every N sites.

Equally I do not think it is a stretch to suggest that this is probably not healthy for the game long term.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4262 - 2015-10-21 14:40:24 UTC
Solomanios wrote:
Some have just barely over 5M skill points, so I should sell some skills out to get under 5M to get maximum benefit, right?

You can't take out skillpoints if it will make you go below 5mil though, so no

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dave Stark
#4263 - 2015-10-21 14:40:52 UTC
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4264 - 2015-10-21 14:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it.


Thats so comically funny, Its like the story of the kid who went to the party not stopping for anything just heading for the ice cream and cakes. He ate so much he threw up and had to go before the fun and games started.

Very apt for player retention and burnout Smile

Levi I officially declare that I'm run out of arguments for you... until you enter this capcha and confirm that you are not a parrot.

P.S. Thanks afkalt for inspiring me.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4265 - 2015-10-21 14:44:58 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.



Depends, in the months of levelling their raven, they have a shot of getting scooped into a corp. Shortening that...might not be great.

Plus imagine the risk aversity it'll drive, I mean it's bad enough with isk being isk....but people will start doing isk:SP calculations mentally.

Stop the galaxy, I want out.
Dave Stark
#4266 - 2015-10-21 14:47:13 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.



Depends, in the months of levelling their raven, they have a shot of getting scooped into a corp. Shortening that...might not be great.

Plus imagine the risk aversity it'll drive, I mean it's bad enough with isk being isk....but people will start doing isk:SP calculations mentally.

Stop the galaxy, I want out.


to be honest, corps are something that needs addressing too.

they need to offer players something more than a shared chat channel, especially for people residing in high sec.
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4267 - 2015-10-21 14:49:58 UTC
afkalt wrote:
you think people are pissed now when a ship they've skilled into is nerfed? Wait until they bought their way into it Lol?


Not empty quoting for truth and justice
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4268 - 2015-10-21 14:50:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Depends, in the months of levelling their raven, they have a shot of getting scooped into a corp. Shortening that...might not be great.

Plus imagine the risk aversity it'll drive, I mean it's bad enough with isk being isk....but people will start doing isk:SP calculations mentally.

No as we know the way to sp up now is to grab implants and then never undock. Actually just don't log in and update your queue and then when you run out of time just leave having hardly entered the game.

At least with this they won't lose what they've spent by getting exploded (ship) or podded (implant).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4269 - 2015-10-21 14:51:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

"Leveling your raven" is an achievement (even if a poor one) that at least keeps people around for a bit. "working 2 extra hours at McBurger joint to afford to buy the SP to level the raven to the point where it can do boring lvl 4 missions" is not an achievement lol, it's a recipe for quitting EVE.

Undocked bazaars toon also can achive it but does it contribute anything in the gameplay?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#4270 - 2015-10-21 14:53:07 UTC
From Reddit:

Quote:
Rather than fixing the stuff that is broken which makes the game less fun for new players, we're instead saying, "look, we know that this game is less fun for new players, but all you have to do is spend 3 plex and you can go back to having fun."


Couldn't have said it better myself. This is a cash grab from CCP which won't bring new players into the game because frankly it's a Clash of Clans gem mechanic disguised as being something else, since the SP comes from other people.

So basically it's gems which were paid for by other players and being paid for by you. And people are OK with this because the Character Bazaar is a thing (which is only a thing because otherwise the accounts would just be sold on eBay anyway)

Not today spaghetti.
Solomanios
Doomheim
#4271 - 2015-10-21 14:54:26 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Solomanios wrote:
Some have just barely over 5M skill points, so I should sell some skills out to get under 5M to get maximum benefit, right?

You can't take out skillpoints if it will make you go below 5mil though, so no


Maybe so, I should lose some SP by other means... :D

Cheers!
-Sol
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4272 - 2015-10-21 14:57:12 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it.


Thats so comically funny, Its like the story of the kid who went to the party not stopping for anything just heading for the ice cream and cakes. He ate so much he threw up and had to go before the fun and games started.

Very apt for player retention and burnout Smile

Levi I officially declare that I'm runed out of arguments for you... until you enter this capcha and confirm that you are not a parrot.

P.S. Thanks afkalt for inspiring me.


Thats your problem i think you lack the comprehension be it with your pidgeon english or the translator your using.

I wasnt agreeing with you nor copying you , Just plain taking the **** out of what you said. Lets hope im runed out to Roll

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4273 - 2015-10-21 14:57:19 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
I'd also like to bring up that I strongly doubt alliances will suddenly fund skill injection for people on any meaningful scale. If they were willing to do this, we'd already have seen alliances bulk buying characters for their members.


Depends if T3s get a nerfbat, I can see SPRPs joining SRPs in big alliances. Also, they don't need to be handing out 50m SP chars to line members to have a use for TSPs, unwatchlisted cynoalts etc don't need that many SPs
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#4274 - 2015-10-21 14:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Dave Stark wrote:
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.


Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.
Dave Stark
#4275 - 2015-10-21 15:00:16 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.


Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.


the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4276 - 2015-10-21 15:02:52 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dror wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".

You're ascribing burnout to a very specific idea, and there's probably nothing to back that up?



Nothing, except the fanfest data. Which is....y'know...something. In fact all we have.


Today skills accrue at a linerar rate irrespective (setting implants aside) of a players activity, which is key to being such a fantastic sandbox - doesnt matter what I do, I never suffer.

This proposal means I can super-grind missions/rats/sleepers/incursions to "level" my character faster. Now I admit I'm assuming that this will create a positive reinforcement to "grind isk, acquire skills", but I really do not think that it is a huge leap - especially given the genre (MMOs...grind>receive bacon).

Except the eve PvE experience has pretty much always been a side show to the main event, players interacting with players. This is why people going down that path leave us and we are, in fact, trying to get a NPE that takes them AWAY from this route.

Therefore I do not think it is "chicken little" to suggest that with the ability to purchase skill packs, we have a very real risk of pushing people into the PvE treadmill and doubling down on this by effectively giving them an SP "reward" every N sites.

Equally I do not think it is a stretch to suggest that this is probably not healthy for the game long term.

Except, there's more. Instead of giving you a bunch of videos to watch, how about I actually challenge your ideas, and we find out if you can actually support them?

You implying skills training linearly being magnificent is based on what? Nothing. If potential subs play other MMOs -- most of them probably check them out -- they find that their play is rewarded. That's a lot like reality. Maybe there are some scientific facts about what's motivating?

Then, you're simply saying that PvE is the reason they quit. Well, what else do they have to do in this sandbox game? They can't do industry without giving up their Raven leveling. They can't have reprocessing efficiency. The very limited gameplay style you're saying is the reason they're quitting is their only option because of SP. Would it make sense that, if they could explore marketing and refinement and production for reasons to log in, they would?

So, to what extent does that play? The game has that very limitation up through 10M+ SP. In fact, no character has maxed.

If you're interested in more, here are some posts about it:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6113882#post6113882
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6114175#post6114175
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6114729#post6114729

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4277 - 2015-10-21 15:04:38 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
pidgeon

Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much?Roll

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4278 - 2015-10-21 15:11:14 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
pidgeon

Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much?Roll


Nah theyre just flying rats, mainly found crapping all over historic buildings and monuments or could that be a euphemism for what you want to do with eve.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4279 - 2015-10-21 15:15:58 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
pidgeon

Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much?Roll


Nah theyre just flying rats, mainly found crapping all over historic buildings and monuments or could that be a euphemism for what you want to do with eve.

Huh, so you don't like Jita riots then

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4280 - 2015-10-21 15:17:49 UTC
I feel very sorry for whichever ISD has to clean this thread up!

Back to the point:

CCP have released a proposal (or 'What they are going to do' depending on your belief). That proposal has been reviewed here and many players who actually access and play the game have pointed out that it is open to heavy abuse. They have also largely sad don't mess with a system that works, enhance other areas that don't.

I would suggest that CCP should address these concerns first before pressing ahead with any change because although it won't matter if those of us against it are wrong, it will matter hugely if we are correct.