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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4141 - 2015-10-20 23:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
The character bazaar does not sell SP - It sells characters. Which for new players is usually done via the purchase of PLex with $.

The aim with what is proposed is to give new players a stepping stone into the New Eden universe. At a cost.

That in itself is a good idea but adding another mircotransaction directed at existing players spending $ is not the right direction to go. Your existing player base is already pushed to spend money on, skins and clothing - So you don't look like a "poor", don't put the cost of helping new players get a kickstart on your current players.

There are 2 ways I came up with CCP can give new players the opportunity to "buy skills" when starting out.
1/ Increase the amount of SP new characters start out with by for example;
Trail account = 28 days and starts with 1 million "unallocated" SP

Upon upgrading to a subscription, the new player has "upgrade options"
For example;
A player chooses to subscribe using "Most Popular" (6 months of game time), once that link is selected he (or she) is then taken to an adjoining page which (for characters with less than 50 mil SP only) gives them the option to buy a "Skill Package", these could be based on *real time* training.
With +4's and an optimal remap you can train 1,753,920 SP in 28 days at a cost of 1 Plex or $14.95 US.
Package 1 - 1.800.000 (unallocated) SP @ $14.95 US or 1 Plex
Package 2 - 3.600.000 (unallocated) SP @ $ 29.90 US or 2 Plex
Package 3 - 10,000,000 (UNallocated) SP @ $83.00 US or 5 plex

2/ Allow those wanting to purchase SP to buy "Transneural Skill Packets" from the New Eden Store.
There could be a new addition to Captains Quarters (maybe next to "Planets") where players can advertise SP they are willing to sell or buy.
Player enters "Captains Quarters" opens "SP Store" and selects a player he wishes to start a transaction with, "they" negotiate a price for the amount and cost of the SP to be transferred. Once the deal is struck a "neural enhancement specialist" (npc dr who removes SP and installs it in the new owner) is engaged at which time the purchaser hands over his Transneural Skill Packet and places the isk in escrow with the Dr, to be delivered to the seller upon successful transfer of the agreed upon amount of skills. (up to a maximum of 500k SP per package)

Dr uses the Transneural Skill Packet, purchaser gets his SP, seller gets his isk. (nominal isk fee charged by "neural enhancement specialist", removes isk from the game)

CCP make a small amount of income through a new microstransaction, that existing players aren't forced to shell out more isk or $ on. Those wanting to buy SP can - and pay for the whole transaction.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4142 - 2015-10-21 00:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
I don't have a problem with new players paying extra money to jump the sp grind. There are alot of people that want to try different of aspects of the game but don't want to spend 1+ months training for the ship / skill entry barrier for each part of eve they want to try.

Its not pay to win (maybe for PVE) but for PvP your shiny ship/SP doesn't matter nearly as much as player skill and experience.
I agree it is pay to reduce training time but considering the player count currently I think its a a necessary evil to get the player count up again and extra revenue for CCP. I dont want EvE to die.

I agree on the abuse problem.
- The SP Cap is a good idea.
- Perhaps there should be a limit on how many times a player (not accounts or characters) can use the SP injections packs per year. To make the alt farming for SP/isk thing harder.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#4143 - 2015-10-21 02:57:43 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Canadian Fire wrote:
All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD.
At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose.


A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes.

On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.

How about a hard cap that changes based on age? So that the max SP that a character can have is based on the age of the character.
EG
SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs
or
SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs + some Fixed Value

The first one is my preferred one.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4144 - 2015-10-21 03:14:53 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

EG
SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs
or
SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs + some Fixed Value

The first one is my preferred one.

SP Cap = 25 Million SP
Merior
Ouroboros Solutions
Recursive Horizons
#4145 - 2015-10-21 04:11:26 UTC
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?
Emiko Rowna
Keys To The Stars
#4146 - 2015-10-21 05:21:11 UTC
What if the skill points bought were put into a reservoir that was drained over time at a variable rate to increase training speed?

0 – 15 million SP (for every 2 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir)
So the best result would be train 10 million and gain 5 million

15 – 55 million SP (for every 3 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir)
So the best result would be train 30 million and gain a full 10 million

55 – 115 million (for every 5 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir)
So the best results would be train 50 million and gain the full 10 million

115 – up (for every 10 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir)
Even at 225 million the most gained from this could 35 million.

Upside
Older players could be allowed all of the points from the device, the diminishing return would come from the slower rate of gain. There for they might be more likely to use this system.
There are built in limits here that do not exist for player willing to spend the ISK under the current purposed system.
Tournament plays will not be able to use this to buy back their T3 skills between matches as they will be able to do under the currently purposed system.
Under the currently purposed system there will be pressure to buy as many of these as fast as you can but under my method they could be bought over time. This will help the market in the long term making it more stable.
New player will only need to buy one from the get go to start gaining while still having the option later and not losing any opportunity. I would hate for someone to get the bad taste from the start that CCP is just out for as much cash as they can get before one even knows if they like the game.


FYI – My biggest concern about doing this at all is that it will put a big target on accounts. I wait for the nightmare of the first account that gets hacked and all of the skill points are drained off someones main. I would not want to be in customer service talking to the person that had 100 million drained off. Even if not sold just think of the items being destroyed after the points are drained (meta that). That main will be unusable until the investigation is over (let’s hope the logs show something). How many long term player will be lost if this happens? They will have the biggest targets on them.
Dave Stark
#4147 - 2015-10-21 05:41:16 UTC
Merior wrote:
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?


those are called alts, we've had them for a long time.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4148 - 2015-10-21 05:43:16 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted

there have been a few, although it seems pretty rare. the main one I remember was some thread on carriers that went 100+ pages. and the dev responsible changed their name and I think eventually left ccp. sadly the forum links are broken.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ships-in-eve-whats-up-doc/
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/carriers-the-swiss-army-knife-of-eve/

heh looks like they almost knew what they were playing with Lol
Quote:
Well, we have an idea, and before you go ballistic remember that this is an idea and we‘re still working on it

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4149 - 2015-10-21 05:45:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Merior wrote:
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?


those are called alts, we've had them for a long time.

plus it is against the rules to recycle characters to get around sec penalties

although many gankers operate at -10 and just don't care. Besides tags4sec is probably way cheaper than buying SP.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4150 - 2015-10-21 06:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Merior wrote:
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?

It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#4151 - 2015-10-21 06:59:13 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Merior wrote:
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?

It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags


thermodynamics is probably the most important. pretty sure they already get that given to them upon account creation now, if i'm not mistaken?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4152 - 2015-10-21 07:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Dave Stark wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Merior wrote:
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?

It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags


thermodynamics is probably the most important. pretty sure they already get that given to them upon account creation now, if i'm not mistaken?

Thermodynamics not really as important as Small Blaster Specialization
http://www.minerbumping.com/2015/10/catalyst-training-under-new-system.html

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4153 - 2015-10-21 07:04:12 UTC
Dror wrote:
A neat idea coming up on some forums is that WoW could really benefit from sandbox gameplay. If gear would become irreversibly worthless as a consequence of poor play or overwhelming odds, there's so much room for interesting gear affixes and for designing further engagement through this. The game can keep its instanced content and its arena PvP, but giving the community something to do in the fields is a reason to come play. This, obviously, has the benefit of requiring crafted replacements, and that sets up a whole economy. This also completes what's shown with intrinsic motivation -- mastering the map control for resources.. or the positioning for controlling engagement, the choice of multiple gear affixes and gameplay styles (e.g., mobility and buffs through the multiple crafting professions), and the cohesion of the market and its requirements.

This more or less what we have in EvE. The choke point are SP. SP are biggest flaw here. Everything was build around them. Some of them don't make any sense, like manufacturing skills. I have to wait x days to be able to build things. Not to mention social skills. I think I know what Salpad meant. Avatars are the same, they only difference in amount of SP accumulated on them.
Main problem is CCP can't just remove SP (or it will be hard to do). Most of market items like ships and modules are bonded with SP level. Now if we just remove them who would use T1 items? Ships are used, but modules? Items are tiered in this game.
What if:
- there are no SP;
- all skills are at level 1 (if I pass my driving license I can ride all cars, no matter if it's nissan micra or ferrari testarossa);
- higher level of skills are obtained by impants or artificial augumentations;
- said implants are: destroable, player build, far more slots that right now, cheaper - at the level of most of books;
- all characters have some "neural skill points" - constant value. NSP are capped, implants "costs" some NSP - we build our clones the way we like it, but choice matters, some implants will cost more than other (something similiar to ships fitting we have now)
- I have no idea what to do with tiered modules (If I'm building explorer I would always choose T2 modules).

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Tav Breil'ya
Rocking Mercenaries
#4154 - 2015-10-21 07:06:55 UTC
Obviously a way to get around for scammers and fraudsters.

Sad to see that money (ISK or real) can buy anything in the game, even long-term skilltraning.

A really, really bad idea to bring to the game to sell individual skillpoints off a character. and a really sad story for newbies to lose a multi-billion capital ship, just because they don't know how to play it, despite the skillpoints in the bank.
Dave Stark
#4155 - 2015-10-21 07:11:12 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Merior wrote:
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?

It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags


thermodynamics is probably the most important. pretty sure they already get that given to them upon account creation now, if i'm not mistaken?

Thermodynamics not really as important as Small Blaster Specialization
http://www.minerbumping.com/2015/10/catalyst-training-under-new-system.html


http://www.minerbumping.com/2012/12/the-evolution-of-catalyst-pilot.html
"With tech II guns, remember to fit Void S instead. It offers over 11% more damage than the faction ammo does."

whereas thermodynamics offers 15% overheat bonus. not that it matters - new players just get given it now.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4156 - 2015-10-21 07:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
What if:
- there are no SP;
- all skills are at level 1 (if I pass my driving license I can ride all cars, no matter if it's nissan micra or ferrari testarossa);
- higher level of skills are obtained by impants or artificial augumentations;
- said implants are: destroable, player build, far more slots that right now, cheaper - at the level of most of books;
- all characters have some "neural skill points" - constant value. NSP are capped, implants "costs" some NSP - we build our clones the way we like it, but choice matters, some implants will cost more than other (something similiar to ships fitting we have now)
- I have no idea what to do with tiered modules (If I'm building explorer I would always choose T2 modules).


Outside SP brothel (erm, bazaar)/ SP packs, they can be simply fixed and shifted towards one-time ISKsink from timesink - like I mentioned here (at the top of that wall of text).

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4157 - 2015-10-21 07:56:29 UTC
Soltys wrote:
Outside SP brothel (erm, bazaar)/ SP packs, they can be simply fixed and shifted towards one-time ISKsink from timesink - like I mentioned here (at the top of that wall of text).

So just bought by ISK? Instead of time to train, ISK to train?
Soltys wrote:
Firstly be honest and admit it's not aimed at new players.

and we done here.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4158 - 2015-10-21 08:04:18 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

Rent 3 billion

Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam


Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar?

Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Dave Stark
#4159 - 2015-10-21 08:06:18 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Rent 3 billion

Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam


Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar?

Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed?

m


the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4160 - 2015-10-21 08:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Kairg wrote:

I am however open to the idea of using the proposed system to exchange skill points within the same character.

Dev blog
Quote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Many people who against this idea are whining about that consequences are not important anymore but it is not the case.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts