These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4081 - 2015-10-20 14:28:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight

No need to get personal. It's rude.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave stark
#4082 - 2015-10-20 14:29:24 UTC
Norian Lonark wrote:
FCs will just force players to go and buy sps


nobody can force anyone to do anything.

an FC knows that people aren't going to go and buy SP because he said so. FCs who think that'll be the case will end up with 5 dudes and have no fleet.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4083 - 2015-10-20 14:34:41 UTC
ColdBeauty wrote:
gascanu wrote:


you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so;
when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on;
this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore


I agree with what you are saying about doctrines and the bar being raised over the years, I just don't get how buying SPs is supposed to help newbros who can't afford to buy them, if they spend their time grinding isk to buy the skills, will they have enough time to grind the isk for the ships ? Will this just herd them all into large nullsec entities with SRPs ?

It seems that a lot of people get left out with this idea.


herding them all to nullsec entities with srp is much better than herding them out of the game;
and that is a mart thing to do, for a new player, instead of just playing solo mission running in high sec; you want to stay "safe"? play in empire solo, but train at normal speed;
you want to advance at a faster speed? join a player corporation, be it nul sec/low sec/incursion that can help you make isk>advance faster, and that will be a win-win situation:good corps get more active players, new players get to train a bit faster, and reach that "confort" zone
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4084 - 2015-10-20 14:35:56 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
Vahligmarr wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Vahligmarr wrote:
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread.....


...

so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy:
"i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"

...

the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive;

...

and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.


As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like.....

And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence....

Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor.

You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me...


Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.


In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4085 - 2015-10-20 14:42:22 UTC
gascanu wrote:


herding them all to nullsec entities with srp is much better than herding them out of the game;
and that is a mart thing to do, for a new player, instead of just playing solo mission running in high sec; you want to stay "safe"? play in empire solo, but train at normal speed;
you want to advance at a faster speed? join a player corporation, be it nul sec/low sec/incursion that can help you make isk>advance faster, and that will be a win-win situation:good corps get more active players, new players get to train a bit faster, and reach that "confort" zone


So basically you are saying "let goons win or the game dies" Lol
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4086 - 2015-10-20 14:46:47 UTC
Norian Lonark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.


This post in a paragraph sums up where this will end up going just get rid of skill points all together so everyone can do everything get in that ship lets buy our level 90 wizards. Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.

What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played.

For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us?

I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG Shocked


and
Jenn aSide wrote:
Can't like this enough.

So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play.

Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect.

Quote:

What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played.

For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us?

I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG Shocked



I do too. Some think we are a dying breed, but i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight. I should have snapped a picture. It means some of us are still being born lol.

..It seems you're forgetting that the PCU is in a huge negative trend. Something is the problem -- "If you would say it's a people problem, prove it. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that game design has to submit to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery." There's no apparent evidence that games are niche because of demographics.

"There's no such thing as a barrier to entry"? So, you're saying that just because the game is claimed as a sandbox game, it should simply get the subscriptions of all those interested in deep play -- even if they have no access to all that?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4087 - 2015-10-20 14:47:25 UTC
Norian Lonark wrote:
gascanu wrote:

you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so;
when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on;
this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore


Doesnt it make it worse? If your saying it solves the problem of getting into different doctrines, now we are saying that big alliance FCs will just force players to go and buy sps for whichever fit is popular that month and because it would now be possible to just get the SPs there would need to be less consideration for doing so.

Personally I dont think this is something which is going to help retain players sounds like it would be just as frustrating players wont have a choice at all to actually play the game and enjoy it. About getting to A - Z as fast as possible and not actually enjoying playing the game... Roll



if ppl go buy sps because "it's an fc order" then they deserve that fc; Big smile
more to the reall facts, in any 'real" alliance, doctrine changes don't happen over night. usually alliance member get a head up of at least a week to prepare for a doctrine change;
also, once you reach a certain amount of sps, there is basically no doctrine that you can't get in like on the spot; even if you don't have that "gallente deffensive system lvl 5", you will be close to it, and can do a logi for a few days till you get it, for ex;
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#4088 - 2015-10-20 14:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawthorm
Levi Belvar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:


Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.


In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win


A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing.

Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more.
Dave stark
#4089 - 2015-10-20 14:48:46 UTC
Dror wrote:
It seems you're forgetting that the PCU is in a huge negative trend.


over the last few months it has been fairly constant with no growth or decline, since about july time.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4090 - 2015-10-20 14:53:21 UTC
ColdBeauty wrote:
gascanu wrote:


herding them all to nullsec entities with srp is much better than herding them out of the game;
and that is a mart thing to do, for a new player, instead of just playing solo mission running in high sec; you want to stay "safe"? play in empire solo, but train at normal speed;
you want to advance at a faster speed? join a player corporation, be it nul sec/low sec/incursion that can help you make isk>advance faster, and that will be a win-win situation:good corps get more active players, new players get to train a bit faster, and reach that "confort" zone


So basically you are saying "let goons win or the game dies" Lol

where did i say that?
you realize there are more alliances in null that just goons, right?
all i sayd was that good corps get more active new ppl,i never said goons are the best corps; yes they are very good, but there are llot more very good new friendly oriented corporations
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4091 - 2015-10-20 14:57:20 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:


Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.


In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win


A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing.

Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more.


I understand what your saying also but most of the sheep now in this thread seem to think whilst your setting a goal there is nothing else todo until you hit your achievement point. Were you not working you ass of in other parts of the game to get isk, protecting a station, even running missions to keep yourself occupied.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4092 - 2015-10-20 15:01:26 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Dror wrote:
It seems you're forgetting that the PCU is in a huge negative trend.


over the last few months it has been fairly constant with no growth or decline, since about july time.

Did ya catch the fresh characters chart? The decent influx would imply that it's still volatile on some level.

There are 18M+ fresh internet users every month, with over 900M in the PC gaming demographic.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4093 - 2015-10-20 15:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:


Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.


In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win


A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing.

Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more.


I understand what your saying also but most of the sheep now in this thread seem to think whilst your setting a goal there is nothing else todo until you hit your achievement point. Were you not working you ass of in other parts of the game to get isk, protecting a station, even running missions to keep yourself occupied.

When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4094 - 2015-10-20 15:25:53 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:


Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.


In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win


A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing.

Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more.


I understand what your saying also but most of the sheep now in this thread seem to think whilst your setting a goal there is nothing else todo until you hit your achievement point. Were you not working you ass of in other parts of the game to get isk, protecting a station, even running missions to keep yourself occupied.

When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.


Its comments like that which make the for's challenges harder and i dont see why you would even want to play a game like eve or anyone be associated with anyone who thinks in that way. Your saying i want to be in my blops ..... right not playing now not worth my time. So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4095 - 2015-10-20 15:31:21 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.


Its comments like that which make the for's challenges harder and i dont see why you would even want to play a game like eve or anyone be associated with anyone who thinks in that way. Your saying i want to be in my blops ..... right not playing now not worth my time. So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work.

That's sorta a main problem with extrinsic rewards like SP.

https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=10m42s

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4096 - 2015-10-20 15:32:48 UTC
gascanu wrote:
maybe, but allowing one 1 day char to fly a titan isn't that good, really;

Why? They pay subsricption, if can afford to plex one I don't see the problem. It will be possible with paying for SP (expensive but still) it all about the money after all. Not my not yours but someone who's willing to pay. Why he can't?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#4097 - 2015-10-20 15:39:40 UTC
Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues with it and like the approach as you have to look at keeping the players who are around 6 months to a year old and I think this will help.

Perhaps you could do a special one on Super and Titan skills that give more of the SP back to older toons?

So all in all I think its a perfectly acceptable idea, next...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4098 - 2015-10-20 15:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:
So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work.

Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4
I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained.

Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#4099 - 2015-10-20 15:48:12 UTC
knowsitall wrote:
While i agree with the "problems" of the character bazaar.

Better if people could change names, remove employment history, even reset all standing......

There has always been the thing about, you can do what you want in Eve but there is CONSEQUENCES.

This to me goes against this. Consequences don't exist in a world of REDOs. this is not a one player game, this is a PERSISTENT world, there is no save and load, when you do something it is part of the history Eve, no matter how small.


Above being said this is still a game and not real live. No redos in real live, but there are second chances.

Allowing people to change name, restart employment history, and even reset standings can all be lored away as bribery or neural behavior correction (Clockwork Orange style).


So to fix the issues in the Dev Blog said i say No to SP for Aurum regardless of the source, even at a bad exchange rate. To me just benefits ISK rich vets, allowing them to respec to the any new meta for the cost of a X number of isk. This is making the mistake Titans were before the changes that they are so expensive that that is barrier to entry. ISK cost is never a barrier to entry, as a vet myself i basically don't grind isk anymore. Why don't i grind isk, because i have ENOUGH. If i suddenly have a reason to have lots more isk i will just grind that isk, at a much better isk/hr rate than a newer player.


Back to a proposed solution of change names, remove employment history, faction standing i really don't think matter (especially since the scrapping of standing for high sec anchoring 0 which i agreed with). So you could have a Neural correction entry then everything below that is in a folder that opens up if people really want to dig down, but it shows that PLEX/Aurum was paid to change this. Even security status hardly matter now you can buy it for Tags.

This is something I had also suggested instead. I have always thought it would fit in well with a sci fi world full of clones and high tech biological procedures that for the right price you could remove or alter these details. You can change your face and appearance and even transfer conciousness to another body, but that you can't change your name seems a little silly.

Yes it could be exploitable but much less so than this current proposal, and also it should come at a cost which would reduce exploitation. I'd suggest that cost is 25% reduction in total SP for that character.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#4100 - 2015-10-20 15:50:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues

You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players.