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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4061 - 2015-10-20 13:15:40 UTC
Dror wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Eve has always been ultra-capitalist. Let the skill-point market be free.

Isn't it more like removing SP to let the market be free.

It's not removing. Change just adding additional option to boost SP by in-game activity.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#4062 - 2015-10-20 13:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawthorm
Vahligmarr wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Vahligmarr wrote:
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread.....


...

so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy:
"i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"

...

the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive;

...

and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.


As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like.....

And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence....

Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor.

You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me...


Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4063 - 2015-10-20 13:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Dave Stark wrote:
i have no doubt that there will be many customers, however i have even less doubt that there will be even more suppliers.



So explain to us then why you "can't wait to set up an SP farm" as you stated? I'm sure you have a perfectly credible and obvious reason for that :)
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4064 - 2015-10-20 13:25:49 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:

Pay to Access.


Hardly better tho really is it...
Dave stark
#4065 - 2015-10-20 13:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i have no doubt that there will be many customers, however i have even less doubt that there will be even more suppliers.



So explain to us then why you "can't wait to set up an SP farm" as you stated? I'm sure you have a perfectly credible and obvious reason for that :)


how many times do i have to point out that i'm not participating in the market as i don't see any profit from it, and that i'll be setting up a farm that i will then leave to expire because with the power of 2 deal it will be free? 5? 10? 30?

i've already stated this, and answered your questions many times over. repeatedly asking me won't make me change it to fit your narrative.

is there a reason why you've asked me the same question a few times in a row despite being given the answer every time?
Dave stark
#4066 - 2015-10-20 13:31:58 UTC
ColdBeauty wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:

Pay to Access.


Hardly better tho really is it...


still better than "10 years behind veterans with 0 way to close the gap".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4067 - 2015-10-20 13:33:13 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.


What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles.



And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right?

I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen Roll

I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right?


Isn't that always the case? CCP implements something that might work...if not for the 12 years of entrenched wealth that makes their efforts futile.


Even with out "old money" It's so easy to make isk now (going to be made even worse by this CONCORD tribute system idea), that any thought of something being balanced by cost is ridiculous.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#4068 - 2015-10-20 13:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawthorm
ColdBeauty wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:

Pay to Access.


Hardly better tho really is it...


Way to selectively quote so as to only leave behind the most dreaded phrase in gaming circles.

Paying to access micro-content (Specific ships and mods) in the context of my previous post has been in the game since day one in the form of 2 concurrent currencies, ISK and SP. Both are obtained over time, one actively and one passively. We can already accelerate one with Plex, so what difference is there in allowing players to accelerating the other?
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4069 - 2015-10-20 13:38:18 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
gascanu wrote:
given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better?

None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.


maybe, but allowing one 1 day char to fly a titan isn't that good, really;
you say eve training system is very bad, while i say, some time ago, it was the best training system around: no need to grind daily to lvl up; no need to login daily so you keep up with your buddies; you had some rl stuff? you set a long skill and go do your rl life, come back to eve when you had time;
now? now it has to evolve, and this new thing is a bit better that the old one. is eve ready for a total removing of skills, or will this be a good thing for the game?
don't think so Blink
so between those options, "old system"," new system" and some hypothetical "removing of skill system", i chose what's on the table for now, since i consider that today, this new system will be better that the old one;
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4070 - 2015-10-20 13:42:46 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
gascanu wrote:
given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better?

None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.


maybe, but allowing one 1 day char to fly a titan isn't that good, really;
you say eve training system is very bad, while i say, some time ago, it was the best training system around: no need to grind daily to lvl up; no need to login daily so you keep up with your buddies; you had some rl stuff? you set a long skill and go do your rl life, come back to eve when you had time;
now? now it has to evolve, and this new thing is a bit better that the old one. is eve ready for a total removing of skills, or will this be a good thing for the game?
don't think so Blink
so between those options, "old system"," new system" and some hypothetical "removing of skill system", i chose what's on the table for now, since i consider that today, this new system will be better that the old one;

A game without a reason to log in is barely a game worth a subscription.

Ignoring the possibility that this could barely effect subs is pretty non-helpful.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

knowsitall
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4071 - 2015-10-20 13:42:48 UTC
While i agree with the "problems" of the character bazaar.

Better if people could change names, remove employment history, even reset all standing......

There has always been the thing about, you can do what you want in Eve but there is CONSEQUENCES.

This to me goes against this. Consequences don't exist in a world of REDOs. this is not a one player game, this is a PERSISTENT world, there is no save and load, when you do something it is part of the history Eve, no matter how small.


Above being said this is still a game and not real live. No redos in real live, but there are second chances.

Allowing people to change name, restart employment history, and even reset standings can all be lored away as bribery or neural behavior correction (Clockwork Orange style).


So to fix the issues in the Dev Blog said i say No to SP for Aurum regardless of the source, even at a bad exchange rate. To me just benefits ISK rich vets, allowing them to respec to the any new meta for the cost of a X number of isk. This is making the mistake Titans were before the changes that they are so expensive that that is barrier to entry. ISK cost is never a barrier to entry, as a vet myself i basically don't grind isk anymore. Why don't i grind isk, because i have ENOUGH. If i suddenly have a reason to have lots more isk i will just grind that isk, at a much better isk/hr rate than a newer player.


Back to a proposed solution of change names, remove employment history, faction standing i really don't think matter (especially since the scrapping of standing for high sec anchoring 0 which i agreed with). So you could have a Neural correction entry then everything below that is in a folder that opens up if people really want to dig down, but it shows that PLEX/Aurum was paid to change this. Even security status hardly matter now you can buy it for Tags.


KIA
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4072 - 2015-10-20 13:53:15 UTC
Dror wrote:

A game without a reason to log in is barely a game worth a subscription.

Good point
Norian Lonark
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4073 - 2015-10-20 13:54:20 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.


This post in a paragraph sums up where this will end up going just get rid of skill points all together so everyone can do everything get in that ship lets buy our level 90 wizards. Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.

What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played.

For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us?

I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG Shocked

Start wide, expand further, and never look back

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4074 - 2015-10-20 13:58:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.


What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles.



And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right?

I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen Roll

I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right?


Isn't that always the case? CCP implements something that might work...if not for the 12 years of entrenched wealth that makes their efforts futile.


Even with out "old money" It's so easy to make isk now (going to be made even worse by this CONCORD tribute system idea), that any thought of something being balanced by cost is ridiculous.



Often but not always. This is just a dream proposition for the old guard.

The newbro catching up argument is a classic piece of trash - like my millions of SP in capitals matter a goddamn when I'm brawling in a cruiser. Or that ice mining rank when I was new.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4075 - 2015-10-20 13:59:07 UTC
Vahligmarr wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Vahligmarr wrote:
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread.....


...

so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy:
"i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"

...

the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive;

...

and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.


As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like.....

And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence....

Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor.

You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me...


did you even read my post?
i have news for you:
right now, my friend, you can buy isk(gold)+SP(SP or caracter lvls)in this MMORPG called EVE ONLINE; you've been playing a how you call it "pay to win" game all this time Blink
ever heard of plex and caracter bazar? that's right, is that place where you go with money and buy ISK(GOLD) and wx or caracter lvls, like ALLOT of caracter lvls Blink oh and CCP was/is charging for it
to be honest this is not pay to win, it's more pay to catch up; and i have no problem with new players catching up at all; the fact that with this new system more ppl will be able to do it is a GOOD thing;

Quote:
Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me...

exactlly : playing a game not waiting 35 days till your skill lvs up;

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4076 - 2015-10-20 14:12:01 UTC
Norian Lonark wrote:
Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.


Can't like this enough.

So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play.

Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect.

Quote:

What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played.

For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us?

I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG Shocked



I do too. Some think we are a dying breed, but i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight. I should have snapped a picture. It means some of us are still being born lol.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4077 - 2015-10-20 14:13:03 UTC
Norian Lonark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.


This post in a paragraph sums up where this will end up going just get rid of skill points all together so everyone can do everything get in that ship lets buy our level 90 wizards. Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.

What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played.

For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us?

I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG Shocked


you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so;
when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on;
this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4078 - 2015-10-20 14:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Jenn aSide wrote:
Norian Lonark wrote:
Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.


Can't like this enough.

So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play.

Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect.



this may have been right one year ago, when eve had a steady player base;
right now?right now, doing that will just mean a slow death; the fact is eve is going down in sub/player numbers, and even happy veterans won't be here forever; they need to do something to get new blood into the game, and this, if implemented right could be one of those things
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4079 - 2015-10-20 14:23:50 UTC
gascanu wrote:


you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so;
when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on;
this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore


I agree with what you are saying about doctrines and the bar being raised over the years, I just don't get how buying SPs is supposed to help newbros who can't afford to buy them, if they spend their time grinding isk to buy the skills, will they have enough time to grind the isk for the ships ? Will this just herd them all into large nullsec entities with SRPs ?

It seems that a lot of people get left out with this idea.
Norian Lonark
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4080 - 2015-10-20 14:27:00 UTC
gascanu wrote:

you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so;
when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on;
this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore


Doesnt it make it worse? If your saying it solves the problem of getting into different doctrines, now we are saying that big alliance FCs will just force players to go and buy sps for whichever fit is popular that month and because it would now be possible to just get the SPs there would need to be less consideration for doing so.

Personally I dont think this is something which is going to help retain players sounds like it would be just as frustrating players wont have a choice at all to actually play the game and enjoy it. About getting to A - Z as fast as possible and not actually enjoying playing the game... Roll

Start wide, expand further, and never look back