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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4041 - 2015-10-20 12:26:49 UTC
gascanu wrote:
stuff

We don't need skill at all then. They are arfitificial barriers that prevent us from doing things in game that have subscription. Now CCP want to charge us for speeding up training for something we don't need. Because it the end they won't matter. I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game. Catching up by money won't solve anything, I already have experience that new player don't have, and he can't gain it in week of playing.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#4042 - 2015-10-20 12:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
Hmmm...

As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before trolls start wanting to ruin peoples' games by extract skillpoints, as well as more tears.

"We will drop this wardec, but we want to see your CEOs skill API, and we want him to buy 4 extractors and hand over a month of his own personal skills as ransom.. and we're going to use your API to check they are actually his skills".

It will happen. You all know it will happen. CCP could of course outlaw any kind of extortion which deals with direct SP, but it's quite unlikely.

Obviously a person can re-buy skills they've been "forced" to lose, but with those dampening factors it could be a fairly massive multiplier (6.25x in the worst-case).

Then again, if CCP did it thoughtfully they'd be able to apply the dampening multiplier only on skillpoints beyond those which have previously been earned naturally.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#4043 - 2015-10-20 12:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaivar Lancer
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.


What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles.
Mercury Eyes
The Establishment
#4044 - 2015-10-20 12:37:55 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
On a slightly different and more constructive note, what about an idea of applying a jump fatigue-esque mechanism to these SP injections rather than the diminishing returns? Want to use them as a one off to get into that ship you've always wanted, go nuts. Keep jabbing yourself like a SP crazed junkie then your going to have to wait a very long time before you can do it again as penance for those initial few jumps in SP.

1st Injection, 24 hours until you can use another with a 4 week extended timer. Use another in that 4 week window and your first timer for your second injection is suddenly a week. Do it again and its now a month plus. A few injections later you've locked yourself out of using this feature for a year or more. The only abuse this leaves is a real low SP alts, which lets face it with the starting player boosts, implants and accelerators was never a big wait to begin with.


While jump fatigue needs to die in a fire, this might be one area worthy of such a limiting mechanic. Maybe even move the remap timer over to a similar mechanism?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4045 - 2015-10-20 12:42:17 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
gascanu wrote:
stuff

We don't need skill at all then. They are arfitificial barriers that prevent us from doing things in game that have subscription. Now CCP want to charge us for speeding up training for something we don't need. Because it the end they won't matter. I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game. Catching up by money won't solve anything, I already have experience that new player don't have, and he can't gain it in week of playing.

PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine).
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4046 - 2015-10-20 12:45:09 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine).

and you didn't understand a word from what I wrote.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4047 - 2015-10-20 12:46:09 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.


i haven't missed anything.

these arguments are irrelevant. i was accused of having a personal stake in the matter. i pointed out i still don't give a **** either way because even if i wanted to sell SP i could.

what other people do is of no relevance to an accusation saying "you have a personal interest in this".


Yes, under the current system, we can sell SP but it is restricted to that account. I have passion and want to see EVE develop for a further 20 years! I understand now, that you don't give a Sh*t about EVE or its player base. As long as you play how you want then its "fine".

Selling SP as an item for instant gratification goes against the players that have stuck with EVE since day 1. EVE is unique, it takes time to develop each pilot, selling SP as bulk takes time away.

There's no valid logical, philosophical, nor design base for saying that a game should remain the way it is because that's how it always was. It's saying nothing about instant gratification, nor the impact of SP. Actually, EVE has a pretty low PCU for sporting a decent fresh character amount.

What neither Dave's nor any other post is addressing is, even if this is somewhat helpful for fresh subs, how it should effect the game's reception.. or why it's being suggested.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Rawthorm
The Establishment
#4048 - 2015-10-20 12:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawthorm
Sentient Blade wrote:
Hmmm...

As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before trolls start wanting to ruin peoples' games by extract skillpoints, as well as more tears.

"We will drop this wardec, but we want to see your CEOs skill API, and we want him to buy 4 extractors and hand over a month of his own personal skills as ransom.. and we're going to use your API to check they are actually his skills".

It will happen. You all know it will happen. CCP could of course outlaw any kind of extortion which deals with direct SP, but it's quite unlikely.

Obviously a person can re-buy skills they've been "forced" to lose, but with those dampening factors it could be a fairly massive multiplier (6.25x in the worst-case).

Then again, if CCP did it thoughtfully they'd be able to apply the dampening multiplier only on skillpoints beyond those which have previously been earned naturally.


Welcome to joys of the sandbox (If we can even call it a sandbox anymore. Now days EvE is the equivalent of a sandbox in which you can be as creative as you like so long as you only build sandcastles...and only so long as they meet a strict string of guidelines.)

Anyway, I have no issue with people being "forced" to hand over SP. It's like anything else in EvE, it's up to the extortee to run a risk vs reward calculation and decide what to do. In most cases it will be cheaper just to man up and take the war dec longer.
Dave Stark
#4049 - 2015-10-20 12:48:32 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Hmmm...

As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before trolls start wanting to ruin peoples' games by extract skillpoints, as well as more tears.

"We will drop this wardec, but we want to see your CEOs skill API, and we want him to buy 4 extractors and hand over a month of his own personal skills as ransom.. and we're going to use your API to check they are actually his skills".

It will happen. You all know it will happen. CCP could of course outlaw any kind of extortion which deals with direct SP, but it's quite unlikely.

Obviously a person can re-buy skills they've been "forced" to lose, but with those dampening factors it could be a fairly massive multiplier (6.25x in the worst-case).

Then again, if CCP did it thoughtfully they'd be able to apply the dampening multiplier only on skillpoints beyond those which have previously been earned naturally.


Welcome to joys of the sandbox (If we can even call it a sandbox anymore. Now days EvE is the equivalent of a sandbox in which you can be as creative as you like so long as you only build sandcastles...and only so long as they meet a strict string of guidelines.)

Anyway, I have no issue with people being "forced" to hand over SP. It's like anything else in EvE, it's up to the extortee to run a risk vs reward calculation and decide what to do. In most cases it will be cheaper just to man up and take the war dec longer. Also remember that any removed SP can also be replaced.


or you could just reform the corp and say "what wardec?"
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4050 - 2015-10-20 12:48:38 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.


What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles.



And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right?

I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen Roll

I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right?
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4051 - 2015-10-20 12:52:11 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.


"i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon".


I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean.


must have missed the question since you didn't throw a question mark in there. what question did i avoid?

i assume you're implying i'm going to be involved in some RMT scheme involving the new SP packets?


- the system lends itself to massive RMT
- you're a goon alt and expressed a desire to have your fellow Goons "suck at the teet", as you put it, and you "can't wait to set up an SP farm"
- you're stating there 0 isk profits involved
- you're unwilling to disclose the real reason of you sperg posting


All the newbros will be your customers as they want SP more than they need isk.

General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4052 - 2015-10-20 12:57:54 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine).

and you didn't understand a word from what I wrote.

Maybe exactly opposite?

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game.

General Lootit wrote:
PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine).

Now is clear enough?

Also
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

We don't need skill at all then... training for something we don't need

You are just taking too much.
Dave Stark
#4053 - 2015-10-20 13:00:27 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.


"i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon".


I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean.


must have missed the question since you didn't throw a question mark in there. what question did i avoid?

i assume you're implying i'm going to be involved in some RMT scheme involving the new SP packets?


- the system lends itself to massive RMT
- you're a goon alt and expressed a desire to have your fellow Goons "suck at the teet", as you put it, and you "can't wait to set up an SP farm"
- you're stating there 0 isk profits involved
- you're unwilling to disclose the real reason of you sperg posting


All the newbros will be your customers as they want SP more than they need isk.



how, exactly, does it lend itself to RMT? you've lost me there.

no, i've expressed that if ANYONE were to start buying SP packets at above cost price i'd throw as many as i can at them because it's a profitable venture. goons were just the example that were cited by some one else. however, i've pointed out that i won't be doing that because i don't think anyone will be that dumb as to just hand out free isk to people.

yes, i am stating that there are 0 isk profits involved in setting up characters who's only purpose is to generate SP to be sold at a profit.

"you're countering my arguments with facts, stop sperging".

i have no doubt that there will be many customers, however i have even less doubt that there will be even more suppliers.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4054 - 2015-10-20 13:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremiah Saken
General Lootit wrote:
Maybe exactly opposite?

Not even close. Carry on, nothing to see here. \
Edit: but you found underline.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4055 - 2015-10-20 13:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
gascanu wrote:
stuff

We don't need skill at all then. They are arfitificial barriers that prevent us from doing things in game that have subscription. Now CCP want to charge us for speeding up training for something we don't need. Because it the end they won't matter. I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game. Catching up by money won't solve anything, I already have experience that new player don't have, and he can't gain it in week of playing.


yes and no; catching up by money usually don't solve anything. but there are exceptions; there are players out there that can learn very fast and the only thing limiting them to beat you is the fact that they just don't have the sps, now they can wait for a few months, of go invest allot of money into a bazar char; with the new option, they can invest a small amount of money and get that hac lvl5 for ex and be on about the same lvl with you;

given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better?

i see allot of ppl here crying for the "new player". so , it was ok for a new player to pay 40 bil isk for a new char, but it's wrong to pay 400 mil for 500k sps?
"oh but the time we spent training" is a good reason for them while conveniently forgoting to add that when most of them started "vets" where 2-3-4-5 years old, the main doctrines where bcs/bs, and they where able to be in one of those ships in what 3 months?; how about the fact that any pilot was bringing whatever ship he had with t1 guns and so on...

now? vets are 10-11 years old, and main doctrines are hacs/t3/bcs/carriers, how long till a new player can fly all of those? or any of those?
the game we played when we joined it's not the game of today; gameplay evolved how about skilling do this too?
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#4056 - 2015-10-20 13:03:56 UTC
Eve has always been ultra-capitalist. Let the skill-point market be free.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4057 - 2015-10-20 13:07:16 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

and you didn't understand a word from what I wrote.

OK. Than I can't unerstand something meaningless.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4058 - 2015-10-20 13:07:49 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Eve has always been ultra-capitalist. Let the skill-point market be free.

Isn't it more like removing SP to let the market be free.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#4059 - 2015-10-20 13:14:16 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Vahligmarr wrote:
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread.....


...

so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy:
"i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"

...

the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive;

...

and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.


As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like.....

And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence....

Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor.

You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me...
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4060 - 2015-10-20 13:15:19 UTC
gascanu wrote:
given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better?

None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville