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[December] Navy EWar Frigates

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#221 - 2015-10-20 12:24:50 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Marcuis wrote:
They look great but i can yell that the MNI Vigil is way to powerful.conpare to the others in mnay ways its a joke really a frig 400 ms base with web n missile dps like farmur or crow.. need do i say morethe NVI mauls dps is far to much with those drones n guns thats far to much dps.. i gather they wanted brawler fights with these... the cruicfer n griffin are fine..keep in mind they are frigs and suppose to be upclose.. woild suggest boost the ewar strength for griffin n cryicfer to make them worth while....


The Vigil is a poor mans garmur, horribly broken.

Imagine what low sec would look like if Garmurs cost 10mil isk... well we're about to find out.


except garmurs do 50% more missile dps


So it will take them a little bit longer to kill their utterly helpless prey Roll


carry a depot, refit to stabs. this is the only way to deal with untouchable kitescum, and it makes them mad as hell like you've done something dishonourable.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#222 - 2015-10-20 12:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
TrouserDeagle wrote:

carry a depot, refit to stabs. this is the only way to deal with untouchable kitescum, and it makes them mad as hell like you've done something dishonourable.


I still think that's insane power for a Navy Frigate to have, but I like your thinking on the depot will try that out some time
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#223 - 2015-10-20 12:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Carrying a depot and refitting for stabs has nothing to do with whether the ship is balanced or not.

Navy Maulus will laugh at your stabs anyway
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2015-10-20 12:45:26 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:


carry a depot, refit to stabs. this is the only way to deal with untouchable kitescum, and it makes them mad as hell like you've done something dishonourable.


Lol
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2015-10-20 12:47:30 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
ColdBeauty wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
ColdBeauty wrote:
There can be no reason other than to deal with WCS. What this represents is a tacit admission that WCS in FW plexes are working as intended.

Now that DSTs are a thing, it may be related more than just to stabbed FW ships.


I have flu and I'm missing the acronym, could you spell it out a bit for a sick simpleton please ? Big smile


Deep Space Transports. They have a native +2 warp core strength.


I guess, bit of a stretch tho. A new faction warfare supplied navy frigate comes double points bonus on scrams, pretty much safe to say that's aimed at stabbed farmers.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#226 - 2015-10-20 13:05:16 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Carrying a depot and refitting for stabs has nothing to do with whether the ship is balanced or not.

Navy Maulus will laugh at your stabs anyway


There is that, the Navy Griffin only has 2 low slots and the Maulus will have 3 scram strength
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#227 - 2015-10-20 13:13:23 UTC
I still don't see why the EWAR on the Griffin and the Crucifier needs to be nerfed at all, they would be at the same level as the other two if it wasn't for that stupid penalty and they could all be easily balanced by making them much more expensive than the combat navy frigs. Maybe if they cost 20k lp + chip + about 10million isk + t1 hull they wouldn't be as poisonous... but the Navy Griffin and the Navy Crucifier that's being proposed are worse than the existing navy frigs so there's no way you could sell them at a higher price.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#228 - 2015-10-20 13:24:45 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
I still don't see why the EWAR on the Griffin and the Crucifier needs to be nerfed at all, they would be at the same level as the other two if it wasn't for that stupid penalty and they could all be easily balanced by making them much more expensive than the combat navy frigs. Maybe if they cost 20k lp + chip + about 10million isk + t1 hull they wouldn't be as poisonous... but the Navy Griffin and the Navy Crucifier that's being proposed are worse than the existing navy frigs so there's no way you could sell them at a higher price.

I think I agree about the penalty on their ewars. It does seem like someone at CCP had a love affair with Navy Maulus and Fleet Vigil and the other two just got left behind. Why give two of them bonuses to range and then purposely butcher the range on the other two? Does that really make sense ? Would they be the OP ones if they had normal range ewar instead of completely gimped range?

But making them cost more isn't a real balancing strategy.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#229 - 2015-10-20 13:42:00 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Carrying a depot and refitting for stabs has nothing to do with whether the ship is balanced or not.

Navy Maulus will laugh at your stabs anyway


navy maulus won't be out of damage range of any non-garbage scram kiter

there are a bunch of broken kiting ships, of course they're unbalanced, this is just the only way to deal with them other than flying a gimp fit and betting on their stupidity.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#230 - 2015-10-20 14:20:10 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
I still don't see why the EWAR on the Griffin and the Crucifier needs to be nerfed at all, they would be at the same level as the other two if it wasn't for that stupid penalty and they could all be easily balanced by making them much more expensive than the combat navy frigs. Maybe if they cost 20k lp + chip + about 10million isk + t1 hull they wouldn't be as poisonous... but the Navy Griffin and the Navy Crucifier that's being proposed are worse than the existing navy frigs so there's no way you could sell them at a higher price.

I think I agree about the penalty on their ewars. It does seem like someone at CCP had a love affair with Navy Maulus and Fleet Vigil and the other two just got left behind. Why give two of them bonuses to range and then purposely butcher the range on the other two? Does that really make sense ? Would they be the OP ones if they had normal range ewar instead of completely gimped range?

But making them cost more isn't a real balancing strategy.


That's a bit of an overused cliche around here, if pirate frigs cost the same as t1 frigs nobody would fly t1 frigs so cost is definitely a component of balance, it's just not enough on it's own to hold OP ships down.

But These ships are all over the place, 2 of them are worse than the existing Navy frigs and two of them are much better... so where to set the price? If they are more expensive only a tool would use a Navy Griffin or Navy Crucifier when you can get better ships for cheaper, but if they are the same price or similar then the skies will soon be thick with Maulus Navy Issues and Fleet Vigils. Eventually everyone will demand a nerf but by then Galmil and Farmattar will have cashed out a few trillion isk worth of lp on them further widening the gap between the millitias - not because of players but because of ccp putting one side at a huge financial disadvantage. This is why I'm most annoyed about it, not just ship balance but the LP markets are ****** up enough already and they need to be redressed but this will just going to tilt the field even more in favour of Galmil who already cash out more LP from the Vexor Navy Issue than cal mil get for their entire lineup.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#231 - 2015-10-21 12:46:29 UTC
The idea should be to have these frigates cost the same as other navy frigates while being as balanced as possible. Just making the OP ones more expensive and hoping it evens out is a terrible idea.

If you look at the ewar progression of the Maulus and Vigil, Maulus gets damps, Vigil gets TPs, Navy maulus gets scram range, Fleet Vigil gets web range, so I think it might be better to give the Navy Crucifier a neut range bonus. Sure this infringes on Sentinel territory a bit, but the scram range bonus of the navy maulus infringes with the bonus on the keres to a certain extent as well, and the fact that Sentinel is a drone ship and navy Crucifier is a laser ship is enough of a differential to justify it.

Then they can swap the bonus on the Crucifier and Sentinel for weapon disruption instead of just tracking disruption, and give them each a full drone bay while they're at it.
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#232 - 2015-10-21 22:31:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello one and all! We are planning a big set of ship and module updates for this Winter, including 13 new ships, module tiericide and much more. This thread will introduce 4 of the new ships, a new line of Empire Navy Ewar Frigates.

These ships are designed to use their racial ewar bonuses (primary ewar for Amarr and Caldari, secondary for Gallente and Minmatar) in unusual ways, skewed towards solo and microgang combat. Overall we don't expect these ships to eclipse Electronic Attack Frigates for fleet support roles, but the combination of ewar with significant frigate damage puts them into their own category.

These ships will be available in all standard combat LP stores for their respective factions.

Crucifier Navy Issue
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Weapon Disruptor effectiveness
Misc Bonus:
-85% penalty to Weapon Disruptor optimal range and falloff
-50% reduction to Weapon Disruptor activation cost

Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 2 Turret
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 42 PWG, 180 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 375 / 600 / 525
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 500 / 250s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 340 / 3.35 / 1,064,000 / 5 / 4.94s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 20
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km / 640 / 5
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38


Griffin Navy Issue
Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
20% bonus to ECM strength
Misc Bonus:
-85% penalty to ECM optimal range and falloff
-50% reduction to ECM Jammer activation cost

Slot layout: 3 H, 5 M, 2 L, 2 Turret, 1 Launcher
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 40 PWG, 200 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 650 / 400 / 400
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 425 / 212.5s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 325 / 3.45 / 1,056,000 / 5 / 5.05s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 600 / 5
Sensor strength: 17 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40


Maulus Navy Issue
Gallente Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone tracking and hitpoints
10% bonus to Warp Scrambler range (This bonus does not apply to Warp Disruptors)
Misc Bonus:
+1 scramble strength to all Warp Scramblers (This bonus does not apply to Warp Disruptors)

Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 4 L, 2 Turret
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 35 PWG, 150 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 450 / 525 / 600
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 330 / 165s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 325 / 3.35 / 1,063,000 / 5 / 4.94s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km / 620 / 5
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 42


Vigil Fleet Issue
Minmatar Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile explosion velocity
25% bonus to explosive missile damage, 20% bonus to em, thermal and kinetic missile damage
Misc Bonus:
+50% Stasis Webifier range

Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 1 Turret, 2 Launchers
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 525 / 525 / 425
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 300 / 150s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 400 / 3.2 / 1,080,000 / 5 / 4.79s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 15
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 660 / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar
Signature radius: 34

Let us know what you think!


WIth these ranges.. Does the navy Griffin have the range to Jam the Navy maulus pointing her?

Is the Crucifier going to be kibble to any long range kiter?

Frigate vs frigate could be very interesting.. but while I understand not makeing any more long raneg ew-ar platforms, I dont know if these would survive intact to get into brawl range.. when are they hitting Sisi?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2015-10-22 04:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think I agree about the penalty on their ewars. It does seem like someone at CCP had a love affair with Navy Maulus and Fleet Vigil and the other two just got left behind. Why give two of them bonuses to range and then purposely butcher the range on the other two? Does that really make sense ? Would they be the OP ones if they had normal range ewar instead of completely gimped range?

But making them cost more isn't a real balancing strategy.
It makes perfect sense when you have 2 EWAR types with over 4x the range of the other 2 before considering falloff, which webs and scrams don't have at all.
xXxNIMRODxXx
Arial Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#234 - 2015-10-22 06:55:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Let us know what you think!


... I think you forgot to add resistance parameters to the ships..
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2015-10-22 11:16:49 UTC
Vailen Sere wrote:


WIth these ranges.. Does the navy Griffin have the range to Jam the Navy maulus pointing her?


Yes if it uses a dual web fit and can land it on the NM
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#236 - 2015-10-22 11:24:41 UTC
ColdBeauty wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:


WIth these ranges.. Does the navy Griffin have the range to Jam the Navy maulus pointing her?


Yes if it uses a dual web fit and can land it on the NM


dual web fit + ecm = no tank, won't live long enough to close range and wait for a jam
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2015-10-22 11:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ColdBeauty
Fourteen Maken wrote:
ColdBeauty wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:


WIth these ranges.. Does the navy Griffin have the range to Jam the Navy maulus pointing her?


Yes if it uses a dual web fit and can land it on the NM


dual web fit + ecm = no tank, won't live long enough to close range and wait for a jam


one web a shield tank and a speed rig would also do it id you start the fight properly also the Griffin puts out quite a bit of damage. Also seeing as hybrid tanks are a thing now I would not be surprised to see someone make that work... obviously this all need testing on sis as stats only tell part of the story, they tell you where you fits might start but testing says where it will of course
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#238 - 2015-10-22 13:32:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense when you have 2 EWAR types with over 4x the range of the other 2 before considering falloff, which webs and scrams don't have at all.

So all weapons disruptors and other electronic warfare should be nerfed to the same range? Or is it just a silly gimmick designed specifically for these two ships?
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#239 - 2015-10-22 17:06:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense when you have 2 EWAR types with over 4x the range of the other 2 before considering falloff, which webs and scrams don't have at all.


scram/web isn't exactly ewar.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2015-10-22 21:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It makes perfect sense when you have 2 EWAR types with over 4x the range of the other 2 before considering falloff, which webs and scrams don't have at all.

So all weapons disruptors and other electronic warfare should be nerfed to the same range? Or is it just a silly gimmick designed specifically for these two ships?
Yes, when you are trying to create a series of ships with ewar effects in the same range profile it makes sense to make them fit that range profile. Does it mean that they should always act at the same range? No, and nothing about nerfing the ranges on 2 ships designed around limited effective EWAR ranges insinuates that.

Templar Dane wrote:
scram/web isn't exactly ewar.
EWAR ship bonuses seem to suggest otherwise, though, in principle what's to say that preventing something from warping or moving as well is fundamentally different from preventing locking or shooting as well?