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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4021 - 2015-10-20 11:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn'Drakkahr
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
brb starting an SP farm.


I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp*



Who knew.


if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that.

who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)


The current Charactar Bazaar works.

1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop.

Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account.


2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values.

Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character.

I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.

Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!!

When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account!


3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye.


i am selling SP directly. i have farmed 60k SP, i am then selling them all to some one else for a sum of isk less my 2 plex transfer fee costs.

in both situations i'm doing the same thing - turning training time in to isk.

you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to.


But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.

Does this not bother you? Or are you one of those people who do not care about EVE being unique?
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4022 - 2015-10-20 11:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
And this quote of yours is also kinda weird:

Dave Stark wrote:
because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different.
anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.

if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train.



It's almost as if you already have a plan in place to take full advantage of this "exactly the same system you have stated to not really be for or against". Could it be that all this time you had a hidden agenda no one noticed? That instead of you just white knighting CCP you had a monetary motivation, a personal one, for it? Surely this can't be, we never expected this at all.


i have a plan in place to take advantage of a system that i've pointed out has 0 potential for profit?

you're welcome to present some maths to prove that there's a profit to be had in this system. on an individual level i personally can't find any.

unless goons just start handing out isk by buying TSPs above cost price - i won't be creating accounts to farm isk. if power of 2 rolls around again will i make an alt to farm SP? i'll probably do so, yes. as i mentioned earlier it's essentially "free" i'll train it for 6 months, sell 3 months of SP then ice it. i'll have made 0 profit from doing that. so why would i? because then i will have instant access to a farm ready character IF i ever need it (which i don't see happening but if it's free... why not?)


That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :)
Dave stark
#4023 - 2015-10-20 11:34:11 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.


i haven't missed anything.

these arguments are irrelevant. i was accused of having a personal stake in the matter. i pointed out i still don't give a **** either way because even if i wanted to sell SP i could.

what other people do is of no relevance to an accusation saying "you have a personal interest in this".
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4024 - 2015-10-20 11:36:15 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to.


But you can't use the current system to steal the skill souls of your alts over time to increase your mains training rate by one char's worth of SP per alt per month.Unless CCP give some very good reason not to do this on your main then every character with PI alts and the ISK available will do this and as far as new player perceptions go leave them behind even further unless they throw yet more RL cash at the game.


no, instead i can just sell my alts, and my main, then use the cash to buy what i wanted my alt to be in the first place.


Actually you can't unless you a very lucky. You can buy something that's a close approximation but not with a name you chose. This new 'feature' will allow people to boost there main learning rate by whatever amount of characters worth of SP they can afford to PLEX.
Dave stark
#4025 - 2015-10-20 11:37:38 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :)

Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin.

i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc.

one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?
Dave stark
#4026 - 2015-10-20 11:40:00 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually you can't unless you a very lucky. You can buy something that's a close approximation but not with a name you chose. This new 'feature' will allow people to boost there main learning rate by whatever amount of characters worth of SP they can afford to PLEX.


as long as i have a character that does what i need it to, it doesn't matter how "close" it is to being the bare minimum. names are an irrelevance, as long as it's not obscene.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4027 - 2015-10-20 11:45:37 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.

Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.

It's in favor of old fashion spying when you need gather information not from machines but from people. I think it defenetly good for social interections.


At least you offered an excuse over daves dodge ball again, spying a chance but unlikely. it wouldnt take more than two occasions of huge fleets being hot dropped for the demonising of new players taking there first steps out of hisec to be jumped on through for fear of what they maybe bringing with them.

Strong guys bullying weak ones. It was and it will be.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4028 - 2015-10-20 11:48:06 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
... however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?


Actually I'm here because I like character based RPG games...so you can see why I'd be against the idea (ignoring the various game altering aspects of it)
Dave stark
#4029 - 2015-10-20 11:49:14 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
... however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?


Actually I'm here because I like character based RPG games...so you can see why I'd be against the idea (ignoring the various game altering aspects of it)


there's always one...
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4030 - 2015-10-20 11:49:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.


i haven't missed anything.

these arguments are irrelevant. i was accused of having a personal stake in the matter. i pointed out i still don't give a **** either way because even if i wanted to sell SP i could.

what other people do is of no relevance to an accusation saying "you have a personal interest in this".


Yes, under the current system, we can sell SP but it is restricted to that account. I have passion and want to see EVE develop for a further 20 years! I understand now, that you don't give a Sh*t about EVE or its player base. As long as you play how you want then its "fine".

Selling SP as an item for instant gratification goes against the players that have stuck with EVE since day 1. EVE is unique, it takes time to develop each pilot, selling SP as bulk takes time away.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4031 - 2015-10-20 11:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Vahligmarr wrote:
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread.....


i'm sorry, it's probably just me being thick, but pay to win what? SPS?
i had 180 mil sps last time i checked, and i still have allot of stuff to train; why should i care that my enemy has 10 or 100 mil sps? oh right, i won't be able to just murder him just by the "weight" of my skills+fittings+ships and brag about how good i am.. that's right.
the fact that i was born 1o years earlier that some 18 year guy that just find out about eve and started playing should not give me some all time advantage over him(i have allot of those in isk/stuff/exp), and it's not: caracter bazar;
but the prices there are prohibitive for most new players, so most of them, at some point, get the next problem: should i invest allot of $ in plex and buy a char or should i just look for another game?
and statistic say they quit.

a 45-50 mil char is allot of isk, 20+billion isk, a price that very few new players can afford ; this new proposed mechanic lower that threshold by several hundred times; so instead of a small nr of ppl who use it atm, allot more new players can use it at a relative cheap price;

so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy:
"i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"

i admit there are some "real issues" with this new mechanic, but nothing that can't be solved by real feedback:

some ppl have a problem with some one day old dictor/hictor pilot? - one easy solution will be that a char need to reach a certain age(5-10-15 days for ex) to be able to use this sp bag thingy
other are complaining about players building "super chars" - easy solution: add a max cap at using this thing, maybe 100 mil sp or 70 or 50 or even 20, hell this cap can be agreed upon, i'm sure; even put a cap on how many bags a player can use in a period of time can be a solution- you got too many sps injected, you get aftereffects like reduced training speed or whatever
should i go on?

the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive;

put yourself for a minute in a new player spot: you join this game called eve and find that to use the shinny t2 hacs everyone talk about you need to wait some 6 months; then more months for a nice t2 bs and some years for some capital ship... hell i won't wait that long, i'll just go for another game....
back in the day when i started, i did this, yes, but back then, eve was THE GAME, not like today with so may other options; and the distance between me and "vets" was 2-3 years;
now? 11 years?? ELEVEN YEARS! and you can't do nothing to catch up with those players(except char bazar ofc, but most players find about that later in the game)

tldr:yes, some vets will exploit this, but with a good feedback and assuming CCP listen those can be limited;
is it perfect? ofc not, but can be improved, that's the purpose of this discution

will some alliances/corps put pressure on the new player to buy those bags and advance faster? i'm sure some will, but i'm also sure some alliances/corps will give those for free or close, to the new players; this is eve, things will balance themself

and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.
Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4032 - 2015-10-20 11:58:18 UTC
Heathkit wrote:
It's sad to see the overreactions in this thread. I'm very impressed with this feature - it's a clever, elegant addition to the game. It takes an arcane and obscure process (trading characters via the forum), and adds depth to the game by creating a new market.

People were already taking advantages of PLEX deals and referral bonuses to start accounts and use them to "grow" characters to sell on the bazaar. This approach just makes that process more approachable and accessible to the majority of players. I really like the idea of being able to trade skill points without having to also trade a character's identity, or get some value out of the skill points I have but no longer want.

The process is totally driven through the player market. You already needed plex to trade characters, anyway. Obviously, they need to balance the details so that trading skillpoints isn't prohibitively expensive, but even if they get it wrong it just means no one will use the feature until they fix it.

Honestly, I think this is the kind of progressive thinking we should be encouraging from CCP.



This... Just this... Perfectly said. /Applause
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4033 - 2015-10-20 12:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :)

Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin.

i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc.

one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?


Right right, that's why you can't wait to start a farm. Roll
Dave stark
#4034 - 2015-10-20 12:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Yes, under the current system, we can sell SP but it is restricted to that account. I have passion and want to see EVE develop for a further 20 years! I understand now, that you don't give a Sh*t about EVE or its player base. As long as you play how you want then its "fine".

Selling SP as an item for instant gratification goes against the players that have stuck with EVE since day 1. EVE is unique, it takes time to develop each pilot, selling SP as bulk takes time away.


you could just try making valid points than throwing insults. i already play how i want, and it is fine. you seem to be rather upset that i responded to a question directly aimed at me, and not even a question asked by yourself.

each SP pack takes time to develop, selling pilots takes time away.
Dave stark
#4035 - 2015-10-20 12:08:17 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :)

Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin.

i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc.

one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?


Right right, that's why you can't want to start a farm. Roll


yes, i can't wait to start a farm to make exactly 0 isk. i've already explained why won't be participating in the SP packet market.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4036 - 2015-10-20 12:09:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :)

Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin.

i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc.

one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?


Right right, that's why you can't want to start a farm. Roll


yes, i can't wait to start a farm to make exactly 0 isk. i've already explained why won't be participating in the SP packet market.


You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.
Dave stark
#4037 - 2015-10-20 12:15:45 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :)

Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin.

i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc.

one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?


Right right, that's why you can't want to start a farm. Roll


yes, i can't wait to start a farm to make exactly 0 isk. i've already explained why won't be participating in the SP packet market.


You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.


"i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon".
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4038 - 2015-10-20 12:17:26 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.


"i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon".


I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4039 - 2015-10-20 12:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:

But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.

I doubt that even small group of players will be able(or wishing to) to maxing out every skill because creating new specialized toon will be cost much cheaper than maxing out single charachter.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave stark
#4040 - 2015-10-20 12:26:25 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.


"i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon".


I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean.


must have missed the question since you didn't throw a question mark in there. what question did i avoid?

i assume you're implying i'm going to be involved in some RMT scheme involving the new SP packets?