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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#4001 - 2015-10-20 11:08:42 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
sixteen 64 wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread
Devs must be happy Big smile


Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Shocked

Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94

That means we win right CCP?!


elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things.

brb starting an SP farm.

as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion.


you never gave a reply to my question to which i was awaiting a response to:

Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.

Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.


what question?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#4002 - 2015-10-20 11:09:16 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here.

Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#4003 - 2015-10-20 11:13:53 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here.

Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.


i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4004 - 2015-10-20 11:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:

Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.

Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.

It's in favor of old fashion spying when you need gather information not from machines but from people. I think it defenetly good for social interections.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4005 - 2015-10-20 11:17:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
brb starting an SP farm.


I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp*



Who knew.


if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that.

who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)


The current Charactar Bazaar works.

1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop.

Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account.


2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values.

Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character.

I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.

Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!!

When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account!


3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4006 - 2015-10-20 11:18:40 UTC
darkchild's corpse wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here.

Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.


i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.


They probably had two ideas for how to jigger with SP accrual and put the worst one up so that people are happy when they 'revisit' the idea and put forward the less bad one :D
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4007 - 2015-10-20 11:19:40 UTC
darkchild's corpse wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here.

Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.


i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.

You mean a feature that scrounges more $ from the player base - Of course they knew - Same as we know it will happen regardless of player feedback being for or against.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#4008 - 2015-10-20 11:19:45 UTC
People have been buying "SP" off the Character Bazaar for years.

The only people crying are bitter elitists who HATE the idea of newbies buying SP and catching up.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4009 - 2015-10-20 11:20:54 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
...

I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.

...


I think you forgot to account for the diminishing returns?
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4010 - 2015-10-20 11:21:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
brb starting an SP farm.


I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp*



Who knew.


if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that.

who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)



That's weird, because your "brb starting farm" means that you'd immediately switch from whatever you're doing atm do this new thing. Why would that be if it's, as you state, "exactly the same"?

And this quote of yours is also kinda weird:

Dave Stark wrote:
because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different.
anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.

if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train.



It's almost as if you already have a plan in place to take full advantage of this "exactly the same system you have stated to not really be for or against". Could it be that all this time you had a hidden agenda no one noticed? That instead of you just white knighting CCP you had a monetary motivation, a personal one, for it? Surely this can't be, we never expected this at all.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4011 - 2015-10-20 11:23:14 UTC
Delegate wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddon’s than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."


Unfortunately it's not clearly described. These are some very broad philosophical arguments that one could used to support... well, a whole bunch of changes. I am fairly certain you did not come to decision to design the SP market lightly. There must be specific issues with the game that you want to address, and reasons why you believe SP market would be a good tool to do so.
With the change of this magnitude, please be transparent with your player base. Ask for whatever permissions you need, and the tell us: why?

This is an agreeable request, but it seems obvious that increasing sustain through allowing play options is key. There's no reason to redesign SP in any manner unless it's negatively affecting subs or overall game reception. It's actually only a problem because of the expectations of a sandbox -- coming to the game should be rewarded with full play, in idea. It's a subscription game.

If they're under-redesigning their own realizations, that SP is a problem (and the realization being backed by motivation theories, game theory, and decision theory.. plus the game's statistics), there's no guarantee that this type of update would greatly increase sustain. The reasons are clearly stated already, and even more is that the gaming market provides so much for so little. If it feels cheep now checking out character purchases, is it really the best method of updating the system -- monetizing it more? That's beyond other issues -- nerfing this for veteran play could reduce interest completely, but as-is it could affect a lot of play trends in favor of those with resources.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4012 - 2015-10-20 11:23:27 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
People have been buying "SP" off the Character Bazaar for years.

The only people crying are bitter elitists who HATE the idea of newbies buying SP and catching up.


Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.
Dave Stark
#4013 - 2015-10-20 11:24:11 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
brb starting an SP farm.


I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp*



Who knew.


if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that.

who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)


The current Charactar Bazaar works.

1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop.

Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account.


2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values.

Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character.

I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.

Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!!

When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account!


3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye.


i am selling SP directly. i have farmed 60k SP, i am then selling them all to some one else for a sum of isk less my 2 plex transfer fee costs.

in both situations i'm doing the same thing - turning training time in to isk.

you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#4014 - 2015-10-20 11:24:45 UTC
On a (perhaps not) completely different note: This new system would be VERY susceptible to RMT practices. "I give you SP, you give me uhm... things... yeah!".
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4015 - 2015-10-20 11:26:37 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
...

I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.

...


I think you forgot to account for the diminishing returns?


Just add a few more accounts to cover those "diminishing returns".
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4016 - 2015-10-20 11:27:19 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.

Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.

It's in favor of old fashion spying when you need gather information not from machines but from people. I think it defenetly good for social interections.


At least you offered an excuse over daves dodge ball again, spying a chance but unlikely. it wouldnt take more than two occasions of huge fleets being hot dropped for the demonising of new players taking there first steps out of hisec to be jumped on through for fear of what they maybe bringing with them.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#4017 - 2015-10-20 11:28:27 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.

I forget about Vegas. Few more days with Dave then...
darkchild's corpse wrote:
i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.

I already seen some creating developing here, some was stupid beyond imagiantion. I just want to hear those changes for ppl to be ok with it.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4018 - 2015-10-20 11:29:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
...

you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to.


But you can't use the current system to steal the skill souls of your alts over time to increase your mains training rate by one char's worth of SP per alt per month.Unless CCP give some very good reason not to do this on your main then every character with PI alts and the ISK available will do this and as far as new player perceptions go leave them behind even further unless they throw yet more RL cash at the game.
Dave Stark
#4019 - 2015-10-20 11:29:19 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
And this quote of yours is also kinda weird:

Dave Stark wrote:
because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different.
anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.

if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train.



It's almost as if you already have a plan in place to take full advantage of this "exactly the same system you have stated to not really be for or against". Could it be that all this time you had a hidden agenda no one noticed? That instead of you just white knighting CCP you had a monetary motivation, a personal one, for it? Surely this can't be, we never expected this at all.


i have a plan in place to take advantage of a system that i've pointed out has 0 potential for profit?

you're welcome to present some maths to prove that there's a profit to be had in this system. on an individual level i personally can't find any.

unless goons just start handing out isk by buying TSPs above cost price - i won't be creating accounts to farm isk. if power of 2 rolls around again will i make an alt to farm SP? i'll probably do so, yes. as i mentioned earlier it's essentially "free" i'll train it for 6 months, sell 3 months of SP then ice it. i'll have made 0 profit from doing that. so why would i? because then i will have instant access to a farm ready character IF i ever need it (which i don't see happening but if it's free... why not?)
Dave Stark
#4020 - 2015-10-20 11:30:57 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...

you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to.


But you can't use the current system to steal the skill souls of your alts over time to increase your mains training rate by one char's worth of SP per alt per month.Unless CCP give some very good reason not to do this on your main then every character with PI alts and the ISK available will do this and as far as new player perceptions go leave them behind even further unless they throw yet more RL cash at the game.


no, instead i can just sell my alts, and my main, then use the cash to buy what i wanted my alt to be in the first place.