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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Hashtag Rare Pepe
Doomheim
#3721 - 2015-10-19 14:22:05 UTC
So, when will this skillgoo be available.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3722 - 2015-10-19 14:23:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.



I didn't think we were openly pandering to vets to abuse things in horrible, game breaking ways.

/shrug


Ok, humour me. what they gonna do?



Instant T3 subsytem skill loss negated
Need a scout? Hello instant unaffiliated interceptor pilot
Never have your cyno alts watchlisted for moves again, ever.
Need a new suicide ganker or scout for it because you've been burned? Why hello there.
Need a POS gunner in an emergency? No problem!

FFS I could create a griffin alt and skill it instantly to come fly over and break tackle on something I foolishly engaged on my mission boat.

The possibilities for creating clean new alts is...frankly mental and if you really think the players won't abuse the ever loving out of this well then I guess you don't know us very well.

This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3723 - 2015-10-19 14:24:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Of course there is a difference, I was just answering within the context of Jared Khanar's post. (In which he was talking about SP gained in the space of a year)

And yes, of course there are ways to potentially abuse this system. That's why the debate should be about reducing these abuses rather than outright writing it off as a bad idea.


There are no limitations in existence which will make this an acceptable idea once you look beyond the highlights and into the detail. The very notion of this being both workable whilst unabusable is a perfect paradox.


I don't believe in an unsolvable problem. Now I think about it too, I don't see the Cyno alt "problem" as an issue. It already wouldn't take long to fill every spare character slot I own with Cyno alts. It's going to take even less time after the starting skills changes. At this point we are already pissing into the wind when it comes to complaining about the ease of making cyno alts.

(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or £ required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3724 - 2015-10-19 14:24:46 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.

Well, this can already be done with the character bazaar.

I don't think this is an issue with SP, but with cyno ships. So how could cyno ships be balanced in order to work around this issue?
Maybe some form of animation or graphic (like the guns fitted on your ship), that you can see before you engage someone and not only after they've deployed the cyno?

What?

Do you even know what supers use cyno alts for and why they are watch listed?

Not to mention the idea of using the bazaar is a) slow and b) reliant on supply.

As far as I understand, it's for moving your caps safely, right? But yeah, I was looking at it from the scenario of people dropping caps on cruisers fleest in lowsec.

Anyway, as said and as you've already confirmed. It can still be done with the bazaar. Although, very clunky and slow, is still possible.

So again, the issue is just with cap movement and how is works in the game. Something that might be addressed in the upcoming cap rebalance. Anyway, it still is not an issue that is a direct consequence of the proposed change. The issue are caps.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3725 - 2015-10-19 14:28:20 UTC
I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.

Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3726 - 2015-10-19 14:30:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.

Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again?
Well CCP Rise simply didn't like the name Kil2, what other reason does he need?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3727 - 2015-10-19 14:32:34 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
Another angle on this is the fact that we're on a path of making everything in EVE trade'able, even skillpoints.

They are on path...the more I dig up about it the more I see how cluster**** it will be. They have a path...
And to think they have something like roleplayers in EvE at eve vegas....Roll
Now seriously, ETA when? Time is money friends

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#3728 - 2015-10-19 14:33:07 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.



Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?

Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3729 - 2015-10-19 14:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
afkalt wrote:
I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.

Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again?

Your and Jenn's argument is actually one of the more valid ones, in this sea of nonsense these past pages have been.

I think you guys have a point and the feature needs to be balanced around this. Either that, or some other major balance changes in the game needs to be made, so instantly trained alts could not be an issue.

However, there is a problem with retaining new players. And how the skill queue is a bad mechanic that does not promote active play. Maybe this is not the solution, but I commend CCP for trying to solve this issue and proposing such a controversial change to how skills are trained.

But it is also very naive to say there does not exist a problem. Basically, the skill queue and its afk promoting properties is the problem, and something drastic needs to happen with EvE in order to attract new players and promote what EvE is really about. Being actively out in space, creating interaction between players and not sitting in a station ship spinning, waiting for a digital bar to fill up.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3730 - 2015-10-19 14:36:16 UTC
Mag's wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.

Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again?
Well CCP Rise simply didn't like the name Kil2, what other reason does he need?

Barely any fresh characters realize there's an option through the character bazaar. If CCP could figure out a method of improving gameplay accessibility by granulating that on the in-game market --

Should they make more money off of SP? It's a system that ruins the potential of the game, sets up payments on top of sub payments, and cheapens the role-playing experience. The game could just as well thrive through being a true sandbox. That's where the referral and sustain potential is.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3731 - 2015-10-19 14:36:19 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Well CCP Rise simply didn't like the name Kil2, what other reason does he need?

Nah, he wanted to fly geddon instead of ceptor
and in a meantime he wants:
CCP RIse wrote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Raz Xym
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3732 - 2015-10-19 14:36:29 UTC
Since you can already just buy a character from the bazaar, I am willing to go along with this idea. I know I don't like the feel of it, at first glance it seems too pay2win. But I am not sure you can pay to win in this game. 90% of the time anyone who tries this ends up paying to lose.

plus:
- may help with new player retention
- allows vets to shed those embarrassing mining skills
- works within the game
- less issues than buying characters (history, cumbersome, name, etc)


I am glad they are putting out the feelers real early on this feature. I am sure there are many in's and out's that need to be thought about. I would even put in a monthly/weekly limit on the numbers of packs/skill points one can gain via this mechanism. Introduce it slowly with throttles. Perhaps open it up later once everyone is comfortable how it is going.
Dave stark
#3733 - 2015-10-19 14:37:14 UTC
afkalt wrote:
This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs


not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.

if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3734 - 2015-10-19 14:42:06 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.

Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again?

Your and Tippia's argument is actually one of the more valid ones, in this sea of nonsense these past pages have been.

I think you guys have a point and the feature needs to be balanced around this. Either that, or some other major balance changes in the game needs to be made, so instantly trained alts could not be an issue.

However, there is a problem with retaining new players. And how the skill queue is a bad mechanic that does not promote active play. Maybe this is not the solution, but I commend CCP for trying to solve this issue and proposing such a controversial change to how skills are trained.

But it is also very naive to say there does not exist a problem. Basically, the skill queue and its afk promoting properties is the problem, and something drastic needs to happen with EvE in order to attract new players and promote what EvE is really about. Being actively out in space, creating interaction between players and not sitting in a station ship spinning, waiting for a digital bar to fill up.



But you see that is the very problem at hand and why I refer to it as a paradox.

I don't think anyone is (seriously) suggesting vets will use this on mains (save for T3 skill point loss), but what we WILL do is ruthlessly recycle and create instant, tailor made, anonymous alts. Now - for this to be impossible for us yet somehow work for a newbean is....essentially unsolvable.

Unless (and this just hit me) the skill points only go to the character on the account with the highest skill points irrespective of who uses the packet - like current rewards. Then you would really tighten up on vet abuse - but I don't think they're going down this route (and it's is probably mechanically improbable).

In summary without massive restrictions (like mentioned) if these packets are in any way, shape or form accessible and useful for the newbros it is doomed to abuse by people like me.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3735 - 2015-10-19 14:43:01 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs


not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.

if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".



New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone.
Dave stark
#3736 - 2015-10-19 14:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs


not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.

if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".



New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone.


you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system?
also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online?

edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3737 - 2015-10-19 14:45:09 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.



Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?

Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table.


Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#3738 - 2015-10-19 14:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
General Lootit wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.



Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?

Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table.


Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market.


Yeh, and?

That's what comes from a system where "players trade the resources they have for the resources they want."

In a trading system everyone should be allowed to trade. Otherwise the above CCP statement is just meaningless lip service.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3739 - 2015-10-19 14:54:31 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.



Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?

Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table.


Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market.


Yeh, and?

That's what comes from a system where "players trade the resources they have for the resources they want."

In a trading system everyone should be allowed to trade. Otherwise the above CCP statement is just meaningless lip service.

Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3740 - 2015-10-19 14:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs


not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.

if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".



New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone.


you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system?
also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online?

edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago.



Honestly, I can't remember. Pretty sure you can just do it any old place when it comes to NPC space. Plus the newbie systems are pretty known, you can pick the right race to get into the zip code.

Although mainly my use of instant was relative to today. Perhaps it should be "almost instant". Currently it is what? 3 daysish to churn a cyno alt out? Tomorrow I can do that (effectively) instantly.

My main concern always was and remains - there are far, far too many bad things to come from this and no clear and compelling benefits to outweigh these pitfalls.

We've not even tested the extreme edge cases, there are players out there far more devious than I, who probably have rafts of plans to abuse these features.



As I said the only, ONLY way I can see really reigning in abuse potential is limiting the skills to go onto the highest skilled toon on the account. Unless a vet makes a new account with the specific aim of this (far less likely than using unused slots on existing ones) then.....then it becomes viable. imo.