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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3701 - 2015-10-19 13:49:23 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.


Again - view this from the companys side. If it´s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ...

And I will tell you again. Plex has the same mechanic. You should equally be against that, given your arguments on this issue.

CCP is a company and a company needs revenue in order to keep running. Obviously, CCP will try to monetize their game, since currently they only have 2 possible revenue streams (EvE and Dust). As an EvE player, you should only have an interest in CCPs effort to make money. Mainly because, if CCP goes bankrupt EvE will shut down.

That being said, whether or not this is a money grab is not really relevant. What is important, is the feature itself. As it currently stands, gameplay-wise it is not that different from a Plex.


As an EvE player im interested in the community / content / fun - i have no interest and shouldnt have how CCP try to make money, i pay a sub to play it as such i dont expect to then be hit by all manner of free2play microtransactions that have seeped into so many games, especially one that has remained in my opinion to the highest standard for many years.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Dave Stark
#3702 - 2015-10-19 13:50:42 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
as stated this is aimed at them.


we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog.


so with the sp losses it is even aimed at 150m sp chars in the same way without a difference? devblogs talk about it so maybe you should read :)


i did read it, i even quoted it.

yes, it's aimed at them in the same way; they can both purchase SP if they want.
Jared Khanar
#3703 - 2015-10-19 13:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Maekchu wrote:

Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.

I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.



well it depends how one use words i guess.

If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example
and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification - as rl money gets transfered in this process it is possible to call that a modification through the use of rl money - if you do not - ok

if i´m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;)
but i´m sure you are able to understand the meaning...

edit: have to leave now so further answers may take a while ^^

Economic Services

trading spacepixels

Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3704 - 2015-10-19 13:51:29 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:

As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.


So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it´s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money.

Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i´m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye.

But that doesn´t mean i have to remain silent until this :)


Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK.


again - yes this is true.
you are able to do so.

but will this be the norm? I guess not. What if new players want to use this - as stated this is aimed at them. do they have a good iskincome to support this? what are they going to do? and if this is only a feature to support the playerbase - why additional moneycosts? i have no problem in someone bossting himself - i have a problem with the shown "we are going to milk you even further" attitude.

CCP has already monetized eve with a monthly subscription - then added plex as a second - then added aurum as a third - and now features are coming to generate pressure to use them all. which one is paying the bill doesn´t matter for me


I don't see it as milking us tho. Milking us would be making this an exclusively RL money only option. Infact I don't think there are any features at all which are strictly RL money only, not even the subscription which is a phenomenal thing for a company to do.

Also Plex as a second, Aurum as a third? Plex is the root, Aurum and ISK are conversion routes from Plex. It in itself isn't a CCP monetized item. To this day there are 3 things you can by with your credit card. Game time, Plex and character transfers. This isn't going to change.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3705 - 2015-10-19 13:51:31 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
But some of EvE unique game mechanics are just fundamentally bad.

So let's make it even worse?
Edit: and charge for it?

The bad mechanic is still there for you to use. You can just choose not to use the SP injection.

This however, gives the option for people to skip this bad mechanic if they either invest the needed time to farm the ISK or some RL money. SP queues have always been bad, since it didn't promote active play.
Dave Stark
#3706 - 2015-10-19 13:54:21 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.

I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.



well it depends how one use words i guess.

If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example
and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok

if i´m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;)

edit: have to leave no so further answers may take a while ^^


advancement would probably be a more appropriate word there than modification, as you are paying to advance from 20m sp after 1 year to 50m sp after 1 year.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3707 - 2015-10-19 13:54:41 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.

I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.



well it depends how one use words i guess.

If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example
and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok

if i´m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;)


No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3708 - 2015-10-19 13:58:15 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.

I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.



well it depends how one use words i guess.

If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example
and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok

if i´m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;)

First of all, the word is defined as the quoted. You cannot change the meaning of a word, based on your own interest.

That being said, I understand your example. And it would have merit, if every character was forced to train at a specific rate all the time. But that is not the case. Some people will choose only to train the skills they need, then train another character. Or they could choose to buy a character from the bazaar, increasing the SP gained for the individual (and SP lost for the seller, but it's the same in the proposed feature).

So no, nothing is being modified, since SP alone does not change any rules of the game. And "interfering" with rl money already exists with the character bazaar.

Anyway, the point is that no rules are being modified by paying a fee to CCP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3709 - 2015-10-19 14:01:07 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.

I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.



well it depends how one use words i guess.

If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example
and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok

if i´m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;)


No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.


Theres alot of difference there, cybenetics lvl1 doesnt allow a top set of implants, cerebral accel last for a short time and is one off after your so old, doesnt allow you to go from 0 to 10,000,00 in as long as would take to inject them.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3710 - 2015-10-19 14:01:33 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:

Removing time to skill by making it payable to get instant SP removes the Unique qualities that makes EVE a sandbox.

Nobody wont remove skill quee. Change only will make new options available and all players will have same accses to it.
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:

30+k players that can purchase SP from the market is not unique.

So I make a conclusion from your statement that you think - only quantity of skills points makes players unique. I so much doubt that everyone will train same skils and there no chance that even small group of players will be able(or wishing to) to maxing out every skill because creating new specialized toon will be cost much cheaper than maxing out single charachter.

Someting about uniquemess
Perrdy Lady
Doomheim
#3711 - 2015-10-19 14:06:00 UTC
This is straight up a quick cashgrab and the rich wins yet again. Disgusting.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3712 - 2015-10-19 14:10:07 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.
Dave Stark
#3713 - 2015-10-19 14:14:51 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3714 - 2015-10-19 14:15:00 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Of course there is a difference, I was just answering within the context of Jared Khanar's post. (In which he was talking about SP gained in the space of a year)

And yes, of course there are ways to potentially abuse this system. That's why the debate should be about reducing these abuses rather than outright writing it off as a bad idea.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3715 - 2015-10-19 14:15:46 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.



I didn't think we were openly pandering to vets to abuse things in horrible, game breaking ways.

/shrug
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3716 - 2015-10-19 14:16:14 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.

Well, this can already be done with the character bazaar.

I don't think this is an issue with SP, but with cyno ships. So how could cyno ships be balanced in order to work around this issue?
Maybe some form of animation or graphic (like the guns fitted on your ship), that you can see before you engage someone and not only after they've deployed the cyno?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3717 - 2015-10-19 14:17:13 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Of course there is a difference, I was just answering within the context of Jared Khanar's post. (In which he was talking about SP gained in the space of a year)

And yes, of course there are ways to potentially abuse this system. That's why the debate should be about reducing these abuses rather than outright writing it off as a bad idea.


There are no limitations in existence which will make this an acceptable idea once you look beyond the highlights and into the detail. The very notion of this being both workable whilst unabusable is a perfect paradox.
Dave Stark
#3718 - 2015-10-19 14:17:41 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.



I didn't think we were openly pandering to vets to abuse things in horrible, game breaking ways.

/shrug


Ok, humour me. what they gonna do?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3719 - 2015-10-19 14:18:29 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.

Well, this can already be done with the character bazaar.

I don't think this is an issue with SP, but with cyno ships. So how could cyno ships be balanced in order to work around this issue?
Maybe some form of animation or graphic (like the guns fitted on your ship), that you can see before you engage someone and not only after they've deployed the cyno?



What?

Do you even know what supers use cyno alts for and why they are watch listed?

Not to mention the idea of using the bazaar is a) slow and b) reliant on supply.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3720 - 2015-10-19 14:19:38 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.



Oh, really?

So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?

Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.

There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.

I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Exactly. Cyno alts. Incursion Alts. Burner and FW mission frigate/bomber alts will be instant, because you can do soooo many isk making things with low SP alts that it ain't even funny. And only people who know what they are doing will want to do that in the 1st place.

On a side note, I think I will start bookmarking the most naive posts people make when ideas like this come up so i can make a "remember when you thought this was a good idea" blog post somewhere about it years later lol.

Now that i think about it, I should have started in 2008 when they announced Dominion SOV, you know, that thing that was supposed to be WONDERFUL for new players and small groups Big smile