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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3501 - 2015-10-19 08:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Urziel99 wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. The new system completely circumvents that which has no place in a "choices matter" sandbox MMO.


Those inconveniences are very easy to get around once the sale thread is linked. But I suspect the most vehement opponents of this who aren't looking to ban the bazaar are people who supply the bazzar.


You buy a character with all its choices and history, you will (have to) deal with the consequences of those choices good and bad. The fact that said character got a new owner doesn't break EVE's "choices have consequences" core concept.

With the new system you buy a character (any character regardless of the SP allocation, name or background choices) and simply syphon its raw SP into your own character. Concept wise that is a MASSIVE difference so the only ones who are ok with this are folks who don't understand or care for EVE's core ideas or ones who don't give a fck and go for personal benefit. Neither of which are people who should be listened to.

As CCP New DEV stated: CCP needs money, badly. It can't be needed for their core business, EVE itself, because that has been running just fine since forever even with all the fckups and stupidity. That means it HAS to be because of silliness and pet projects, why should we agree to CCP monetizing and squandering EVE's core values for that? They tried that in 2011, it back fired. Now they're trying it again.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3502 - 2015-10-19 08:50:00 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
...

It's no secret to me that you're a Dev alt Dave and you're most likely the main one who's constructed this insidiously cancerous idea and is trying your best to convert the masses in this thread to follow your plot. I'm not buying it and I seriously hope no one else will because I know what it will lead to in the future.

But this post is something that you really, REALLY need to comprehend. Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to.


I'm wondering if I'm the only person who when reading this had the voice of HAL in their head...
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3503 - 2015-10-19 08:53:24 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
...

It's no secret to me that you're a Dev alt Dave and you're most likely the main one who's constructed this insidiously cancerous idea and is trying your best to convert the masses in this thread to follow your plot. I'm not buying it and I seriously hope no one else will because I know what it will lead to in the future.

But this post is something that you really, REALLY need to comprehend. Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to.


I'm wondering if I'm the only person who when reading this had the voice of HAL in their head...


I\m just surprised they were able to post through the mountain of tinfoil.
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3504 - 2015-10-19 09:01:45 UTC
Quote:
In EVE "Pay 2 win" term has meaning that someone who wont to pay can't access same features which payers does.


Yep, I can appreciate that.

I suppose trading on the market and purchasing for $, would not effect my original idea.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3505 - 2015-10-19 09:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dave stark
#3506 - 2015-10-19 09:14:07 UTC
Zappity wrote:
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.


any character over like a day old is as powerful as the amount of ships on the other side of his cyno. which you can't measure anyway.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3507 - 2015-10-19 09:16:37 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
There's quite a few things I would like to do much more effectively but cannot due to SP limitations.

Sure, I can do them now but since the act is balanced around max skill, it's terribly inefficient thus making it extremely hasslesome and barely accomplishable.

Because I cannot do these things in a manner that is enjoyable, I do not do them as often as I feel I would if it were possible to do them how CCP intended them to be done, at the required skills maximum level.

Because most of the things I want to do, I cannot, it means the few things I can do result in my not doing much most of the time.

Granted, if there's nothing I want to do available at that time, I can always alt tab and play league of legends or civ 5 while I sit in station on comms waiting for opportunities to present themselves. . . . .

But that doesn't seem like too great of a solution, go play other games, now does it?

And this is with my 10mil SP. Imagine how the n00bs 3-4 months in are faring. I bet they're all diamond level now.3+256+84+8+





10mil sp after over a year and half playing. Speaks loads about your abilities and mental capacity, thanks for being on the "supporters" side :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Jared Khanar
#3508 - 2015-10-19 09:18:33 UTC
@ CCP Terminus

As you showed us you are reading in here - please don´t forget my questions to you i posted some time ago: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110431#post6110431

You are also welcome to send me a pm if you don´t wan´t to talk about this in public.

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3509 - 2015-10-19 09:19:45 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.



At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win.

This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.

The update could work with alot of re/work and restrictions. I posted my idea a few pages back.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3510 - 2015-10-19 09:19:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that.

Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs.
From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP.
I can compete with other players within game activities.
I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved.
It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air.
It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind.
I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay"







"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3511 - 2015-10-19 09:22:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?


Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3512 - 2015-10-19 09:23:06 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad.

So you want to keep people suffer for their desire to gain more SP? Or for decisions were made not by them but by another people?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3513 - 2015-10-19 09:23:25 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.



At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win.

This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.


This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing.

But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3514 - 2015-10-19 09:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Just caught up with the latest posts on this topic.

It would seem that CCP, having noted the overwhelmingly negative feedback, have decided to go ahead with it anyway.

Makes one wonder what was the point of requesting feedback in the first place.

Oh well, onwards, ever onwards.


one negative thread on eve-o isn't "overwhelmingly negative" head anywhere outside of this thread and the response isn't nearly as negative.

as mike pointed out, you have to be subscribed to post here. considering the positivity of other people - you could quite easily argue this feature could bring many people back to the game. quite frankly with some of the responses in here and how silly they are even if some people left and the net number of players was constant i'd call it a good trade.


Response (at least on eve-o and I see that as only official place to discuss it) is quite negative. In term of number of people expressing it. By the amount of posts it might seem equal, but that`s only thanks to you and couple more who spam the thread with support for this efficiently :D

Pity your arguments were not efficient at all, other way lots of people would understand that there is no place for their concerns and change POV and support this.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3515 - 2015-10-19 09:26:50 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.


An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash.

I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them.

These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited.

Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities.
Dave stark
#3516 - 2015-10-19 09:28:16 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that.

Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs.
From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP.
I can compete with other players within game activities.
I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved.
It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air.
It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind.
I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay"









Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#3517 - 2015-10-19 09:28:33 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.

How about:
"looks like a horrible overprices paywall from a free2play title but the game actually costs 15$ a month."

A new player will see this on the market. It's not hidden somewhere in the forums. He will see the normal slow passive accumulation of SP as a playwall so he spends more money on the game to purchase some internet spaceship skills for real money.

Evil RatKid
Dave stark
#3518 - 2015-10-19 09:30:00 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?


Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .


what?
Luscius Uta
#3519 - 2015-10-19 09:30:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?



We already have an unlimited supply of ISK entering the game, through most PvE activities. Why is that a bad thing? Do you think EVE would turn for the better if there were no ISK faucets?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3520 - 2015-10-19 09:32:55 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.

So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).

First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.

Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.

If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.

So move along, nothing to see here.


Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.



And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training?
The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices.


I wrote 4 WOT`s on the subject. Read everything and inform yourself before jumping in discussion if you want to be seen as proper interlocutor, worth time needed for posting explanations.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know